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Final Mortal Kombat 11 Tier Lists

Marlow

Marlow

Champion
M2Dave said:
I also believe that pre-patch Raiden was a superior character when the electric burst jailed after most strings.
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He can actually still jail off of a lot of strings with his Lightning Storm. Costs a bar, but it's solid chip and he can follow up with an overhead that leaves him -1 depending on spacing.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Juggs said:
There’s never a “right” or “correct” tier list. And there’s never a tier list that is set in stone. Tier lists are, and will always be, subjective. Even the tier lists that are based on MU numbers are subjective, considering MU numbers are subjective.

Early tier lists are a reflection of the knowledge available at that time, the experience, the current meta at the time, and characters being how they are at that time (meaning before they’re nerfed, buffed, or changed in any way).

Tier lists are virtually irrelevant. The only real uses they have is helping newer players, and potentially providing healthy discussions about the game, characters, MU’s, the meta, etc. But the actual lists themselves on their own provide very little real value.
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I agree with half your post, but the premise that tier lists have little value because of subjectivity is easily disprovable considering the consensus in spite of complex game mechanics, numerous characters, and incessant patching, hotfixing, and DLCs. The best example is ironically Mortal Kombat 11. High level players may disagree on the order of the top five, wherein arguably lies the actual subjectivity, but I have yet to see a tier list from any reputable tournament player who omits Cetrion, Fujin, Jacqui, Joker, and Liu Kang from the top 5. The same is accurate for Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7, to cite two further fighting games that I play and whose competitive scenes I follow. Even fighting game developers, at least some of them, have admitted to buffing and nerfing characters based on stipulatory tier lists.

I know you have been playing UMK3 for almost two decades. How many players disagree that Kabal and Human Smoke are the best and second best characters respectively? If there are any disagreements, I would imagine people would argue about the order, particularly for the mid tier characters, as is usually the case in most fighting games. I cannot fathom how any experienced player would make the claim that "tier lists are virtually irrelevant."
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
M2Dave said:
I agree with half your post, but the premise that tier lists have little value because of subjectivity is easily disprovable considering the consensus in spite of complex game mechanics, numerous characters, and incessant patching, hotfixing, and DLCs. The best example is ironically Mortal Kombat 11. High level players may disagree on the order of the top five, wherein arguably lies the actual subjectivity, but I have yet to see a tier list from any reputable tournament player who omits Cetrion, Fujin, Jacqui, Joker, and Liu Kang from the top 5. The same is accurate for Street Fighter 5 and Tekken 7, to cite two further fighting games that I play and whose competitive scenes I follow. Even fighting game developers, at least some of them, have admitted to buffing and nerfing characters based on stipulatory tier lists.

I know you have been playing UMK3 for almost two decades. How many players disagree that Kabal and Human Smoke are the best and second best characters respectively? If there are any disagreements, I would imagine people would argue about the order, particularly for the mid tier characters, as is usually the case in most fighting games. I cannot fathom how any experienced player would make the claim that "tier lists are virtually irrelevant."
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I didn’t say that they don’t have value because of subjectivity. That wouldn’t make any sense because just like tier lists are always subjective, value itself is and can only be, subjective as well. Also, you never actually explained what you believe their value actually is. Unless your argument is because there is a consensus, that means they’re somehow valuable? (If that is your argument, how does there being a consensus make the tier lists valuable?). Speaking of which, I also never said that a consensus doesn’t exist. I’d appreciate less strawman attempts David. :p
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Juggs said:
I didn’t say that they don’t have value because of subjectivity. That wouldn’t make any sense because just like tier lists are always subjective, value itself is and can only be, subjective as well. Also, you never actually explained what you believe their value actually is. Unless your argument is because there is a consensus, that means they’re somehow valuable? (If that is your argument, how does there being a consensus make the tier lists valuable?). Speaking of which, I also never said that a consensus doesn’t exist. I’d appreciate less strawman attempts David. :p
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What strawman attempts? I was addressing what you posted initially.

Juggs said:
There’s never a “right” or “correct” tier list. And there’s never a tier list that is set in stone. Tier lists are, and will always be, subjective. Even the tier lists that are based on MU numbers are subjective, considering MU numbers are subjective.
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I explained how tier lists can be right, correct, and objective using Mortal Kombat 11's top five characters, with which virtually no prominent high level players disagree, as an example.

As far as the actual value of tier lists goes, they show players which characters dominate the meta at the highest level of play. For players interested in competing offline and/or online, I would say that information is fairly valuable, which I thought was obvious and self-explanatory.
 
Marlow

Marlow

Champion
Characters at the extreme ends are somewhat easy to form a consensus on, but characters in the middle are harder to place. I think it's valid wonder how much consensus of a tier list is simply an echo chamber effect of people seeing other people's lists. Realistically, how many players have invested the time into researching each character in the cast enough to make an accurate determination of tier placement?

Tier lists have value, but I'm wary of people giving tier lists too much weight. I think it gives a bit of a chilling effect on people picking up and researching lower tier or even middle tier characters. I think for most players, even a lot of competitive pro players, it's more about how good they actually are at the game than which character they pick.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
M2Dave said:
What strawman attempts? I was addressing what you posted initially.



I explained how tier lists can be right, correct, and objective using Mortal Kombat 11's top five characters, with which virtually no prominent high level players disagree, as an example.

As far as the actual value of tier lists goes, they show players which characters dominate the meta at the highest level of play. For players interested in competing offline and/or online, I would say that information is fairly valuable, which I thought was obvious and self-explanatory.
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You said “I agree with half your post, but the premise that tier lists have little value because of subjectivity is easily disprovable considering the consensus…”

I never said tier lists have little value because of their subjectivity. As explained in my previous post.

Then you started arguing as if I said there wasn’t a consensus on tier list placements. These are the strawman arguments I was referring to.

Tier lists usually do have a consensus of agreement, this is obviously true and again, I have never stated the contrary. But a tier list having a consensus doesn’t make them objectively “right” or “correct”.

Even IF you could with 100% objective accuracy make a perfectly correct tier list, it still wouldn’t be very useful outside of what I already said it it’s useful for. And to reiterate, tier lists themselves are only useful for newer players. The other value they bring to the table is the discussions, or rather, tier list discussions can be valuable (I say “can” because some tier list discussions devolve into nonsense and people being unproductive). Since you’re talking about the meta, character abilities, character match ups, discussing strategy, etc, that’s the true value of tier lists, the discussions.

Outside of these things, tier lists are virtually useless. Any competitive player already knows who the best characters are, which characters are middling of the road, and which characters are terrible through experience. You don’t need a tier list to determine any of these things. Unless, of course, as I said, you’re a newer player or even a super casual player.

In fact, tier lists (as well as MU numbers), can be a detriment to a competitive player. And again, I’m referring to the actual lists themselves, not the discussions which can actually be productive and helpful.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
M2Dave said:
I explained how tier lists can be right, correct, and objective
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A tier list based on opinion can never be objective. Never ever. It’s counter to the very definition.

It doesn’t matter how many people hold similar opinions at a given time; they’re still opinions, and thus subjective.
 
M2Dave

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Juggs said:
Any competitive player already knows who the best characters are, which characters are middling of the road, and which characters are terrible through experience. You don’t need a tier list to determine any of these things.
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A tier list is precisely a player's knowledge and experience projected on a piece of paper or image. Just because this knowledge and experience are displayed visually does not mean that the value is suddenly lost.

Juggs said:
In fact, tier lists (as well as MU numbers), can be a detriment to a competitive player. And again, I’m referring to the actual lists themselves, not the discussions which can actually be productive and helpful.
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False. Back when I played Mortal Kombat 9 eight hours a day to prepare for EVO 2012, I used to examine every tier list and match up chart, even without engaging in the discussions, in an attempt to find a solution to Smoke, who was my worst match up. Knowing that I lacked the dexterity to play a character like Kabal and the right frame of mind to play a character like Cage, I had to contemplate which character I was going to choose. I know that other players of that generation, whether Perfect Legend who picked up Kabal, King who picked up Kenshi, or Tom Brady who picked up Kung Lao, followed a similar procedure based on tournament results and tier lists.

Obviously, I am old and washed up now, but my mentality has always been that I am selecting the best character who fits my gameplay style (i.e., Freddy in Mortal Kombat 9, Zod in Injustice 1, Tremor in Mortal Kombat X, Atom in Injustice 2, Urien in the current version of Street Fighter 5, Paul in the current version of Tekken 7, etc.). I could not care less about the mid and low tier characters and the order in which anyone ranks them. For this reason, tier lists matter to me and the players who think like I do. So when Sonic Fox releases a tier list and places an arbitrary character in the S tier, you can bet every dollar in your wallet and bank account that I will lab and seriously consider using that character if my skills, or the lack thereof, permit me to do so.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
M2Dave said:
A tier list is precisely a player's knowledge and experience projected on a piece of paper or image. Just because this knowledge and experience are displayed visually does not mean that the value is suddenly lost.
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I have never even come close to suggesting this.

M2Dave said:
False. Back when I played Mortal Kombat 9 eight hours a day to prepare for EVO 2012, I used to examine every tier list and match up chart, even without engaging in the discussions, in an attempt to find a solution to Smoke, who was my worst match up. Knowing that I lacked the dexterity to play a character like Kabal and the right frame of mind to play a character like Cage, I had to contemplate which character I was going to choose. I know that other players of that generation, whether Perfect Legend who picked up Kabal, King who picked up Kenshi, or Tom Brady who picked up Kung Lao, followed a similar procedure based on tournament results and tier lists.
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Nothing you said here makes my statement “false”. It seems like I’m constantly having to repeat myself or reiterate what I have said. I said “it CAN be a detriment…”

M2Dave said:
For this reason, tier lists matter to me and the players who think like I do. So when Sonic Fox releases a tier list and places an arbitrary character in the S tier, you can bet every dollar in your wallet and bank account that I will lab and seriously consider using that character if my skills, or the lack thereof, permit me to do so.
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Again, this is why I said tier lists are only really helpful for newer players, or super casual ones. Of course, early in the games life, tier lists can definitely help to some degree. But consequently, early tier lists are the least accurate and the most subject to change. And before you say “see, you said ACCURATE!” Yes, I did. If you want to know why, just re-read my posts in this thread, namely the first one where I mentioned this subject. Sorry, I’m just tired of constantly having to repeat myself, it’s a massive pet peeve of mine.
 
Tony at Home

Tony at Home

Master
I think Sheevas still good, more than decent. Not great, but good.

She's in a weird situation. The best version of her is really hard to play and uses none of the variation moves that made her top tier formerly.
 
Juxtapose

Juxtapose

Master
M2Dave said:
That video is from last year.

The following one from two days ago.

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Interesting to hear his thoughts. I was surprised for Mileena his biggest issue seemed to the opponent's ability to Breakaway right after Ball Roll. While obviously that hurts her, I thought the character had greater issues.
 
Espio

Espio

Kokomo
Tony at Home said:
I think Sheevas still good, more than decent. Not great, but good.

She's in a weird situation. The best version of her is really hard to play and uses none of the variation moves that made her top tier formerly.
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What is the loadout? I have her with her fast advancing special launcher to help deal with some range concerns, her low grab and tremor. I think her base fireball is excellent and tagging on blockstrings remains useful. Curious what you have come up with.
 
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