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Tech Fighting against crouching chars with kung lao

Perfect Legend

Perfect Legend

Kombatant
I'm sick and tired of seeing all these combos that will never hit anyone in a real match.

How about you guys put your heads together and find a way around his problem vs crouch.

Crouching destroys all of his options besides spin, low hat, b3, f3, b1 and f4.

Now all of those options have downside:
spin is unsafe
low hat is a unsafe projectile that is only +2 on hit
b3 is a 11 frame short ranged unhit confirmable combo starter
f3 is only 0 on hit and -4 on block (stupid wtf why)
b1 is a mid hitting hit confirming combo starter but its slow as balls.
f4 is a slow low attack jumping 0 on block push back away.

All this means Kung Lao's counter poking is ass especially if you just spam d3 all day.

I would like to see all this KL combo maker people actually find out a way to make his counter poke better besides throwing out spin.
 
Zyphox

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
you are missing the point about "combo maker people". why is it that people watch combo videos? for entertainment. it isn't for gloating about how good they are and that they know everything (except for check). to stay on topic i don't see anyway around countering a shang d3 except try to bait it out and full combo punish him with 21, the downside is you need to be a jedi to do on reactions and can get you blown up, and the timing is very very strict on the enemies hitbox rising after d3 being blocked and you pretty much need to just frame punish them.
 
Brownie

Brownie

Stay Wet <3
Zyphox said:
you are missing the point about "combo maker people". why is it that people watch combo videos? for entertainment. it isn't for gloating about how good they are and that they know everything (except for check). to stay on topic i don't see anyway around countering a shang d3 except try to bait it out and full combo punish him with 21, the downside is you need to be a jedi to do on reactions and can get you blown up, and the timing is very very strict on the enemies hitbox rising after d3 being blocked and you pretty much need to just frame punish them.
Click to expand...
You can't full combo punish a d3 cause they are still in a ducking state. If you don't press buttons after a d3 you wont get punished.
 
Red Reaper

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Administrator
Perfect Legend said:
b3 is a 11 frame short ranged unhit confirmable combo starter
Click to expand...
B3 3 is hit konfirmable but it is better to use that when you have meter so you kan switch to EX tele on block.

Kung Lao is fine the way he is but people do tend to overrate him so I see your frustration.
 
Perfect Legend

Perfect Legend

Kombatant
Zyphox said:
you are missing the point about "combo maker people". why is it that people watch combo videos? for entertainment. it isn't for gloating about how good they are and that they know everything (except for check). to stay on topic i don't see anyway around countering a shang d3 except try to bait it out and full combo punish him with 21, the downside is you need to be a jedi to do on reactions and can get you blown up, and the timing is very very strict on the enemies hitbox rising after d3 being blocked and you pretty much need to just frame punish them.
Click to expand...
Its the same damn combo pretty much every time!

Kung Lao's 21 gets ducked by all crouch normals in the game he can't counter poke anything. Chars can literally walk up to his face with d3, d3, d3 repeat and he cant do anything about it that isnt unsafe or slow.

Red Reaper said:
B3 3 is hit konfirmable but it is better to use that when you have meter so you kan switch to EX tele on block.

Kung Lao is fine the way he is but people do tend to overrate him so I see your frustration.
Click to expand...
Its not hit confirmable. I of all people should know.
 
Zyphox

Zyphox

What is going on guys, Ya Boi Zyphox here.
Perfect Legend said:
Its the same damn combo pretty much every time!

Kung Lao's 21 gets ducked by all crouch normals in the game he can't counter poke anything. Chars can literally walk up to his face with d3, d3, d3 repeat and he cant do anything about it that isnt unsafe or slow.


Its not hit confirmable. I of all people should know.
Click to expand...
d3's do like 0.0000001% damage on block, i say bait it if they go for the second d3 in a row and spin them, but again use the force because if you miss the timing your fucked. condition them to either follow up after d3 or block. then b33 spin or something, i dont see a way around his garb counter poking besides trying something stupid like d1 ex tele, or d1 ex hat or some parekeet lao shit lol
 
Red Reaper

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
Administrator
Perfect Legend said:
Its the same damn combo pretty much every time!

Kung Lao's 21 gets ducked by all crouch normals in the game he can't counter poke anything. Chars can literally walk up to his face with d3, d3, d3 repeat and he cant do anything about it that isnt unsafe or slow.
Click to expand...
He kan D4 or D3.

D3 is good because of the spacing it leaves you at on counter poke.

Perfect Legend said:
Its not hit confirmable. I of all people should know.
Click to expand...

Yeah it is! lol.

B3 by itself no. But with the second hit, yes.
 
Big Pampering

Big Pampering

Master
here is my thoughts on countering crouching characters:

2121 can be very useful if you mix it up with 21 during pressure, they can get hit if they expected the string to end. canceling 2121 into ex teleport whiff grab makes it safe if they dont have x ray, it extends your pressure bceuase youre in their face with armor and in this case it doesnt really matter whether they are crouching or not. it only costs half a bar because you built the other half with 2121 on block.

b1f1 is useful if you use jumpkick+divekick. after you land it is hard for them to react to a 7 frame special mid with a good hitbox. so opponents will just try to crouch and wait for you to do a high hitting move, which opens up a b1f1.

you can also mix up b1 into 21 because its hard to know when the string ends. what I also do is just a naked b1 after I land from a dive kick during neutral. some people try to whiff punish the whole string b1f1. if you just do b1 into backdash 24. you can punish their whiff punish attempt with 24 spin depending on what move or character they use.
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Oh look! Perfect Legend has graced us with his presence again!

I love how you pop in like once a month to bitch about something/someone, this time you decided to be an elitist prick and mock combo vid guys.

Get fucked. How about that? These guys are always a positive influence on this community. Unlike most "top" players not unlike yourself.

If you wanted to discuss crouching against Lao, awesome. But of course you got to wag your Mk big Dick around and belittle someone first.
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
This isn't going to end well.


Also: B33 may be hit-confirmable, but it's got no range whatsoever. You'd be better off ending the whole thing with Low Hat and taking the pushback to make room for your next move, be it a Roll, jump back Dive Kick, whatever the case. Or an EX Tele~2 to either catch them ducking, armor through their reaction, or again, create pushback.
IMO...Nothing is more important to Lao than space. Not Meter. Not a lifelead. Not celibacy. Not the World Cup.
Space is everything. But that's me.

I rarely favor Lao over Cage anymore, but this is a legit concern.
Online, the rules don't really apply...but offline, more and more people are gonna start taking advantage of this.
Just like they did to Jax's F413, and Sektor's zoning, and Shang's morphing issues, etc.
He'll always be Top 5, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Cyrax eventually take his spot in the Top 3.

Ha. If you knock Kenshi down too, and move Freddy up, your Top 3 would spell KFC.

Mmm.
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Lt. Box said:
This isn't going to end well.


Also: B33 may be hit-confirmable, but it's got no range whatsoever. You'd be better off ending the whole thing with Low Hat and taking the pushback to make room for your next move, be it a Roll, jump back Dive Kick, whatever the case. Or an EX Tele~2 to either catch them ducking, armor through their reaction, or again, create pushback.
IMO...Nothing is more important to Lao than space. Not Meter. Not a lifelead. Not celibacy. Not the World Cup.
Space is everything. But that's me.

I rarely favor Lao over Cage anymore, but this is a legit concern.
Online, the rules don't really apply...but offline, more and more people are gonna start taking advantage of this.
Just like they did to Jax's F413, and Sektor's zoning, and Shang's morphing issues, etc.
He'll always be Top 5, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Cyrax eventually take his spot in the Top 3.

Ha. If you knock Kenshi down too, and move Freddy up, your Top 3 would spell KFC.

Mmm.
Click to expand...
I enjoying reading the words you type...always.
 
HerbaList

HerbaList

Noob
divekick over and 24 so that the 4 will hit. rest is up to u.. seen u do it tough. my english is bad so explaining it is kinda hard.
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Treadmill said:
I enjoying reading the words you type...always.
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<3.
Come to Toryuken. There will be beer.
And me and xFriction_Burnx doing battle Mexican Lucha Style.

See...the reason I don't play Lao is I don't trust him. And this crouching issue is an example of the biggest reason why.

You know what I remember? Immediately after Lao got 1.05'd in the junk, and he got dropped by a good chunk of people, and how all anyone said was how unsafe he was now. Then slowly but surely, the Jax and Shang and Smoke and Cyrax hype all started giving way to people bringing back Lao.
Because the PL's and Forever Kings and other various assorted hats of the world realized he was still REALLY good. And I watched, and I cheered, and I went WTF repeatedly, and it was grand...but it didn't change the facts in my mind. He was still a ticking timebomb worth of risk and reward and risk, but the players were doing great because that kind of Lao was still relatively unexplored. Then 2012 all went by, and Lao returned to the top of the tippy-top, but his problem now is that his new ways have had a year's worth of exposure to the real world for players to figure him out and build their countermeasures/exploit his downsides. It's not about the character anymore, its about the players, and players are like puzzles...some of them are a LOT harder to figure out than others, but eventually, they all get solved.
I love Cage because the way he's built means once you get out the bread and reach to apply the butter, you shouldn't even be THINKING of making your next move, be it a poke, an F3, a B3, a Nut Punch to duck a projectile while simultaneously mocking your opponent's terrible timing, without knowing exactly where its gonna go and what could and should happen when it gets there. Great Laos seem like they're built to be incredibly mobile, agile, and executioner-tier precise with their reads, whereas great Cages are more in tune with finding their way in, getting a string started, and dancing along going OOH YEAH, waiting to react to YOUR every maneuver down to the frame, and make you guess your way into a shot in the pride lands. That's my butter.
I don't just want to win; I want to make you despise yourself and all that you are for even attempting to guess your way out from beneath my glowing green fist. But I'll always buy the first round when I win :D.
 
D

Deleted member 9158

Guest
Just overhead hat it up. I eat that shit all day long and I still haven't learned my lesson :-\
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Lt. Box said:
<3.
Come to Toryuken. There will be beer.
And me and xFriction_Burnx doing battle Mexican Lucha Style.

See...the reason I don't play Lao is I don't trust him. And this crouching issue is an example of the biggest reason why.

You know what I remember? Immediately after Lao got 1.05'd in the junk, and he got dropped by a good chunk of people, and how all anyone said was how unsafe he was now. Then slowly but surely, the Jax and Shang and Smoke and Cyrax hype all started giving way to people bringing back Lao.
Because the PL's and Forever Kings and other various assorted hats of the world realized he was still REALLY good. And I watched, and I cheered, and I went WTF repeatedly, and it was grand...but it didn't change the facts in my mind. He was still a ticking timebomb worth of risk and reward and risk, but the players were doing great because that kind of Lao was still relatively unexplored. Then 2012 all went by, and Lao returned to the top of the tippy-top, but his problem now is that his new ways have had a year's worth of exposure to the real world for players to figure him out and build their countermeasures/exploit his downsides. It's not about the character anymore, its about the players, and players are like puzzles...some of them are a LOT harder to figure out than others, but eventually, they all get solved.
I love Cage because the way he's built means once you get out the bread and reach to apply the butter, you shouldn't even be THINKING of making your next move, be it a poke, an F3, a B3, a Nut Punch to duck a projectile while simultaneously mocking your opponent's terrible timing, without knowing exactly where its gonna go and what could and should happen when it gets there. Great Laos seem like they're built to be incredibly mobile, agile, and executioner-tier precise with their reads, whereas great Cages are more in tune with finding their way in, getting a string started, and dancing along going OOH YEAH, waiting to react to YOUR every maneuver down to the frame, and make you guess your way into a shot in the pride lands. That's my butter.
I don't just want to win; I want to make you despise yourself and all that you are for even attempting to guess your way out from beneath my glowing green fist. But I'll always buy the first round when I win :D.
Click to expand...
I have a love hate relationship with cage. Love playing as him. You know the rest.

Speaking of lucha, did you know I moonlight as a pro wrestler? True story, I can link you videos:cool:
 
LaR

LaR

Apprentice
Yes i find alot of people dont abuse d3/d4 enough against kung lao. When they do you are forced to go for jump in punch / jump in tele mix ups or jump kicks.
 
Treadmill

Treadmill

Champion
Son ov Timett said:
Which fed?
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Just local stuff in the wv, Ohio, area. Biggest promotions I've done are probably 304 wrestling and asw. I don't do it a lot, just fun for me.

Not to totally derail the topic haha...

As annoying as crouching against Lao is I find spin a fair answer. Lao can't have it all.
 
Lt. Boxy Angelman

Lt. Boxy Angelman

I WILL EAT THIS GAME
Treadmill said:
I have a love hate relationship with cage. Love playing as him. You know the rest.

Speaking of lucha, did you know I moonlight as a pro wrestler? True story, I can link you videos:cool:
Click to expand...
I frequented CZW shows for years. Oh, the wonderful times, the parking lot beer...the broken glass and shattered faces...

My suggestion for this problem: Analyze the characters, and think up the best way to exploit THEIR weaknesses.
What do a Sektor, a Quan, a Mileena, A Jax and so on, what do THEY fall victim to?
Slow normals? Unsafe wakeups? Baiting backwards walk? Plan ahead.
Not to get all Sun Tzu, but you've gotta know your enemy as well as, if not better than, you know yourself. You've gotta sine that pitty on the runny kine.
 
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