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F23 and the rest of the cast.

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Despite the fact that it was explained in a complaining way, I think it's actually a valid point.

What he was trying to say is that, if Superman had a broader array of handy offensive normals, he wouldn't have to depend so much on f23 which means that f23 wouldn't have to be such a dominating move.

Whether you agree or disagree, it's a valid point and the same thing applies to Killer Frost and her slide. I don't think you should censor people for expressing an opinion about their character.

-A Cyrax player has to make constant use of 2-starter strings, 1-starter strings, d4, saw blade, the overhead, bombs, the net, the AA grab, and command grab to be successful at a high level. They are all good tools and they reinforce each other.

-The net is awesome, but it's slow, hella unsafe and really punishable if done too close. His best starters are the ones you have to play footsies to use.

-A Kung Lao player needs his 11 and 21-starter strings, 24, his overhead, the roll, his dk, the spin, the occasional b3, tele 3 and tele 2 etc. on a constant basis to be successful at a high level. He has a bunch of useful tools and it's up to the player to space himself well and then make use of the appropriate tool at the appropriate time.

-As useful as tele and spin are, they will also get you blown up if mistimed or punished. As useful as 21 is, it's duckable and won't play footsies for you.

-Baraka's blade charge is great in footsies, but it's neg and if it's not spaced well you get punished by certain chars. It's also not a combo starter. People say "but Baraka isn't a great character" but a lot of that has to do with frame data making him risky and slow up close, not with making blade charge a safe combo starter.

If you can't understand what people mean, that's on you -- but it's a valid argument and I'm not going to close it just because someone might not agree.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
the speed of f2 is not the problem. The problem is the loop, if you are gonna start nerfing the startup then let's nerf green lantern b1 because that thing is a low, 9 frames and has way more reach than f2 and is epic for whiff punish. The loop is what botters people not the reach.
If you're getting looped by Superman, thats on you, you have options to fight it, use them.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Despite the fact that it was explained in a complaining way, I think it's actually a valid point.

What he was trying to say is that, if Superman had a broader array of handy offensive normals, he wouldn't have to depend so much on f23 which means that f23 wouldn't have to be such a dominating move.

Whether you agree or disagree, it's a valid point and the same thing applies to Killer Frost and her slide. I don't think you should censor people for expressing an opinion about their character.

-A Cyrax player has to make constant use of 2-starter strings, 1-starter strings, d4, saw blade, the overhead, bombs, the net, the AA grab, and command grab to be successful at a high level. They are all good tools and they reinforce each other.

-The net is awesome, but it's slow, hella unsafe and really punishable if done too close. His best starters are the ones you have to play footsies to use.

-A Kung Lao player needs his 11 and 21-starter strings, 24, his overhead, the roll, his dk, the spin, the occasional b3, tele 3 and tele 2 etc. on a constant basis to be successful at a high level. He has a bunch of useful tools and it's up to the player to space himself well and then make use of the appropriate tool at the appropriate time.

-As useful as tele and spin are, they will also get you blown up if mistimed or punished. As useful as 21 is, it's duckable and won't play footsies for you.

-Baraka's blade charge is great in footsies, but it's neg and if it's not spaced well you get punished by certain chars. It's also not a combo starter. People say "but Baraka isn't a great character" but a lot of that has to do with frame data making him risky and slow up close, not with making blade charge a safe combo starter.

If you can't understand what people mean, that's on you -- but it's a valid argument and I'm not going to close it just because someone might not agree.
What? He has plenty of offensive options, people just don't choose to use them. His zoning is adequate, his airdash gives him a great deal of mobility options, and his 22 string is actually good(just dont do the 3 and it is safe). Don't even get me started on how many options he has in the corner.

Im not going to respond to the random MK9 examples except to say that if blade charge was a combo starter and safe he would be top 5. Again I have no idea what any of that has to do with this thread.

This entire argument could have been argued in the COUNTLESS superman threads. Whether it is valid or not is irrelevant because it doesnt need to be its own thread.
 

TrulyAmiracle

Loud and Klear~
Honestly i love the making the f2 a high suggestion.
He'll still have the f23 combos, it'll still have its uses (mainly as a whiff punisher).

And something needs to be done about his lasers, more recovery or less meter gain.
 

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
I feel like people really don't understand the point of a pressure character, and as Foxy has tilted at, Superman has no other options but to pressure you. If he's got you in his f23 loop and he's forcing you to make choices, then he's doing exactly what he needs to be doing. He still needs to make a read to capitalize on it. The whole "stop letting him pressure me" issue was a non-starter from the very beginning. If the argument was "Superman is too mobile and can start his pressure too easily on too many people" or "Superman gets too much damage every time he reads successfully," those might be somewhat valid arguments and maybe even correct ones, but it never, ever comes down that. If he's got you locked down then he's playing his game the way it's supposed to be played, and he deserves to have the advantage that gives him.

Also, it is weird that my post saying someone should make a guide has more likes than the post where I made a guide.
 
Thats not a justification to remove Supermans.
Give other characters their mids instead then, dont just take away one of the only good ones.

true. i don't see a problem with supermans design. the game is young and people just have not figured out how to deal with it. its not like we are talking about MB teleport... its just a string that is advancing and safe. a lot of characters have ways around it.
 
So i was looking at the superman forums and looking at all the combo choices with the various strings he has and noticed something rather interesting.

F23 is rarely canceled in a combo. Its always F2~into whatever. Why not make F23 uncancelable? It wouldn't effect his combos really and it would force him to choose between pressure (F2~breath) or going for damage (F23) with F23 being negative on block causing supes to lose his pressure if he guess wrong.

Just a thought.

Sent from my Gameboy Color using Tapatalk 2
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
So i was looking at the superman forums and looking at all the combo choices with the various strings he has and noticed something rather interesting.

F23 is rarely canceled in a combo. Its always F2~into whatever. Why not make F23 uncancelable? It wouldn't effect his combos really and it would force him to choose between pressure (F2~breath) or going for damage (F23) with F23 being negative on block causing supes to lose his pressure if he guess wrong.

Just a thought.

Sent from my Gameboy Color using Tapatalk 2
This is logical.

Prepare for the shitstorm you will receive by supes players.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I dont think making f23 uncancelable is entirely unfair. You can use f2 breath to force mistakes and use f23 to capitalize on those mistakes. F23 by itself would still be generally safe, you would just have to get your pressure going again.

Basing a character off forcing mistakes is fine, but when you can do it as easily and effectively as Supes does it becomes an issue.
 
So i was looking at the superman forums and looking at all the combo choices with the various strings he has and noticed something rather interesting.

F23 is rarely canceled in a combo. Its always F2~into whatever. Why not make F23 uncancelable? It wouldn't effect his combos really and it would force him to choose between pressure (F2~breath) or going for damage (F23) with F23 being negative on block causing supes to lose his pressure if he guess wrong.

Just a thought.

Sent from my Gameboy Color using Tapatalk 2
I don't think this would work at all. If this happened, Superman gets no trait for midscreen combos and gets locked in at a max of ~30% damage. It would probably be even less because he wouldn't have F23 xx Flying Punch. Green Lantern has a super fast ranged low and Superman can't have a super fast ranged mid? I don't think taking away cancel ability would be fair at all. That would seriously screw with the character. Nerf his zoning, you'll all be happy, Superman players shouldn't mind much (I don't), everybody wins.

P.S. You should have used "affect". Sorry, grammar is my thing.
 
Thats not a justification to remove Supermans.
Give other characters their mids instead then, dont just take away one of the only good ones.
judging by al your comments I've to say: You really love to use f23 loop don't you? that's why it's gonna get nerfed on 30th.
 

Nutrient

Lex Flex
Troll thread or not i couldn't care less

F23 is fine...yes seriously

Super and Corner combos do need a nerf, maybe even slow down F2 to 9 frames to forgo anymore whining

Until these patchs, Supes is indeed a bastard, [whom I adore]

However, once the above issues have been addressed:
  1. People need to get better at the game, learn the mu, stop walking into his fist.
  2. Pick a top-tier character, I know thats tough
  3. My personal choice for QQ army that couldn't be bother increasing their fundamentals etc;
Kneel before me!
Signed, Kal-El