Explanation of Option Selects in MKX by UltraDavid

[UltraDavid]

I just hope they didn't do this on purpose. It seems way too convenient that option-selects pop up now that every 2d fighter has them.

Nah, this is backwards. Every fighting game and every video game has and has always had and always will have option selects. Some option selects are stronger or weaker for competition than others, but at least some always exist. The only thing that's changed is that the body of knowledge and experience developed by fighting game players has become gigantic. Now when we get a new game, we understand what to look for, how to analyze, and how to break down and exploit game engines. Our games have more players than ever, so the level of competition required to win gets higher, so people are forced to try to squeeze more out of the game. We've become good enough at this that sometimes we now find game changing option selects within a week and a half of a game's release. Option selects don't pop up because developers insert them, they pop up because players find them. That some scenes haven't found option selects in their games before is more of a reflection on them and their level of competition than anything about their games, imo.

Whether option selects are good for competition level is pretty subjective. I like them a lot because I find less value in the little mixups that they tend to solve and more value in the larger strategy of gameplan, space control, footsies, etc that tend to get highlighted. If you love the guess of high/low, then you probably don't like these option selects. But there are still lots of decisions to be made despite option selects. Street Fighter 4 is full of them now, but that hasn't prevented it from being by far the most popular and most competitive (in the sense of difficulty of winning tournaments) fighting game right now. Maybe you don't like that game, and that's fine, but it's become a faster, more offensive game in large part because of option selects, and the larger strategy in it hasn't suffered at all.

That said, I really doubt we'll see top level players use these any time soon. I'd be pleasantly surprised if we saw them by Evo.

 

[Absinthesize]

can we get a link to the comment that this is going to be patched out?

 

[RM Jonnitti]

good shit @UltraDavid im definitely going to be messing around with this when i have the time to. this game just got a lot more interesting

 

[Zoidberg747]

Im not sure these are worth learning since Paulo already confirmed they were getting patched out.

 

[qspec]

Snip

I think we can all agree that they are in all fighters. They are a function of system mechanics, and so long as there are mechanics... there are ways to game them.

That said, they are able to be diminished. For example, Skullgirls has damn near zero OS. Xrd has very few, and the notable one (throw/slash) is clearly explained in their tutorial (taking at least one of my criticisms away). And, if the two people above me are to be believed, MKX is patching theirs out.

I'm a fan of the neutral too, but a big part of the neutral is the right move at the right time. And in my view, an OS to allow you to pick the right move at the right time (or just as importantly to avoid picking the wrong move at the wrong time) is just as asinine as a system that would help you navigate to the right place at the right time (or whatever).

The risk/reward gameplay along with the knowledge of when to punish are huge parts of the neutral.

The problem with MKX's OS right now is that they can be applied to literally nigh every unsafe string or special which makes them infinitely more obtrusive than even SFIV.

 

[Barrogh]

I'm sorry, but it sounds more like: "I don't understand and don't want to understand how this works, but probably, better players now will have more advantage over me.... So, NRS - remove this feature entirely, so I will feel comfortable until something similar will be found or another cheap character wins a major."

Never knew that definition of a good player is one who makes the game play, make decisions and hitconfirm for him automatically.

So far the most sensible thing to do IMO is to follow Chaosphere's idea.

 

[BlackViper415]

Well, dumb and technical aren't mutually exclusive.

MAHHVELL BAYBEE

 

[Barrogh]

Whether option selects are good for competition level is pretty subjective. I like them a lot because I find less value in the little mixups that they tend to solve and more value in the larger strategy of gameplan, space control, footsies, etc that tend to get highlighted. If you love the guess of high/low, then you probably don't like these option selects. But there are still lots of decisions to be made despite option selects. Street Fighter 4 is full of them now, but that hasn't prevented it from being by far the most popular and most competitive (in the sense of difficulty of winning tournaments) fighting game right now. Maybe you don't like that game, and that's fine, but it's become a faster, more offensive game in large part because of option selects, and the larger strategy in it hasn't suffered at all.

The thing I personally don't like is that stuff like that makes those guessing games you're talking about stronger for characters that have good OSs. In a sense, it defines how good his mixups are - on a character design level, not something we can attribute to a player, I may add.
They may put more value in the rest of the game for some people (and no doubt, ability to force yourself into position to use those tools will become more valuable if reward/risk of doing so is increased, something this tech does), but it also means games will be decided faster once these options are in play. So to speak, if that makes neutral game more valued, it's probably because we will see less of it.

 

[TAS_DASH]

Nah, this is backwards. Every fighting game and every video game has and has always had and always will have option selects. Some option selects are stronger or weaker for competition than others, but at least some always exist.

Yeah, that was sarcasm Dave, I was just saying that due to the questionable decision making that NRS is notorious for. Honestly, apart of me did want to slightly believe it because I sometimes question their competency in fighting game knowledge. I admit, this game is better than MK9 and Injustice, but NRS needs to clearly start spending a lot more time testing games like other fighting game companies do before home release. We become the beta testers and some things are not fixable with just adjusting frame data and gravity on launchers. Their are enough smarter NRS game players who can sit down, find these things, and explain why certain characters don't have the tool sets to compete against a good chunk of the cast.

I wish NRS would look towards the tourney scene more and actually make an UMKX as a massive patch with move additions for characters need it and overall game changes like Capcom do. Capcom shows with SFIV how much they care about the tourney scene, whom are the majority of people buying the upgrades. I watched people fighting to keep MK9 relevant, even though that game deserved to die (due to horrible balance issues.) They fought, gave suggestions on how to balance, asked for a patch and never got it. That sucks. Fighting games take longer than a year to fully develop and NRS is done patching within the first year. This is true, even for NRS games with an easier learning curve.

This is just an NRS rant so I'll stop and I understand it's about making money and I don't hate anyone's hustle. It's just wishful thinking. I do have this game on PC and PS4 do I'm still supporting it. I just want them to handle this better and will give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they do.

 

[John Grizzly]

Friends and I have been testing this OS and it seems to me it just promotes mashing :/

 

[RM Jonnitti]

That some scenes haven't found option selects in their games before is more of a reflection on them and their level of competition than anything about their games, imo.

yes

 

[SPY]

Never knew that definition of a good player is one who makes the game play, make decisions and hitconfirm for him automatically.

So far the most sensible thing to do IMO is to follow Chaosphere's idea.

We all don't know how this tech will affect competitive level. No OS will win tourneys, or make reads, or will play footsies, or do mix ups. Yes, MK OS can cover some options, but it is available to every player, so in time we potentially will see some new OS tech, new anti OS tech, rise of characters who can counter OS, etc. All that can potentially expand the depth of gameplay, increase necessity of good footsie game, encourage zoning or vice versa, we don't know yet.
I just ask people to stop making rash assumptions on what little we know about it.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

No OS will win tourneys

this man will tell you otherwise.


on another note, i really hope this doesn't get removed. its something universal that helps out EVERYONE, espeically characters that have a hard time being safe. it also makes up for the fact that its really difficult to hit confirm in this game, unlike others where you dont have to dial in your special move, and if you do it too late it wont come ouot

 

[qspec]

That's the thing though... it doesn't help out everyone.

It helps those out who know about it and are willing to put in time to learn them... time, I might add that could be just as easily spent learning frame data and not doing stupid shit at neutral.

The big difference being that one is transparent and presented clearly and the other isn't remotely.

Not to mention how badly it could potentially fuck with balance. Not all OS are created equal, and so they buff characters unequally.

For example, above someone asked for a Goro OS. Looking at his frame data, one could surmise that Goro doesn't need as many OS since most of what he does is safe on block (this may not be the case, but just as an example let's assume it is).

Now we are in a lurch with a character like Goro receiving almost zero benefit from this discovery, but some other character receiving massive benefit from them. So now Goro just took an invisible nerf having nothing to do with his relative in-game power.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

That's the thing though... it doesn't help out everyone.

It helps those out who know about it and are willing to put in time to learn them... time, I might add that could be just as easily spent learning frame data and not doing stupid shit at neutral.

The big difference being that one is transparent and presented clearly and the other isn't remotely.

Not to mention how badly it could potentially fuck with balance. Not all OS are created equal, and so they buff characters unequally.

For example, above someone asked for a Goro OS. Looking at his frame data, one could surmise that Goro doesn't need as many OS since most of what he does is safe on block (this may not be the case, but just as an example let's assume it is).

Now we are in a lurch with a character like Goro receiving almost zero benefit from this discovery, but some other character receiving massive benefit from them. So now Goro just took an invisible nerf having nothing to do with his relative in-game power.

honestly if you're not playing at the highest level this wont even matter. it honestly doesn't seem that hard to learn, and the existence of this OS by no means at all mean that you don't have to learn frame data. and honestly, this just makes hit confirming easier. its something that is generally incredibly easy in games that don't use dial in combos, and honestly the difficulty of hit confirming is really what holds a lot of characters back who have unsafe special moves. and honestly, even though goro doesnt necessarily NEED it, it certainly still exists and doesnt hurt the character by any means. the fact that goro doesnt need this at all actually is a case for him being a better character if anything, since safe specials give him a safe way of adding in additional chip damage. also can prevent you from doing things that aren't true block strings that can be armored through, which im not sure if goro has or not but should be looked into. also goro not needing this gives him lower execution barriers than the rest of the cast

 

[qspec]

First, to the contrary... having OS means you have to learn frame data on top of the OS. It is an unnecessary cost of entry which is one of my biggest gripes about them.

That's not true at all. Having all of your strings safe is no guarantee of being a better character. Things like start-up, move speed (and anything else that affects positioning), or combo damage are all ways of balancing a character. Ostensibly, a character like Goro is roughly balanced by these things before you factor in OS. Once you include them (again assuming that Goro has no meaningful OS), then as other characters get better for them... he, by effect, gets worse. So saying that it doesn't negatively affect him (or anyone else) is definitely premature.

And if the best argument being brought to the table to keep OS is that they don't affect anything meaningful... then fuck it anyway, let's get rid of them and remove some needless complexity from the genre.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

let's get rid of them and remove some needless complexity from the genre.

Every fighting game and every video game has and has always had and always will have option selects.

i guess you missed that part

 

[qspec]

i guess you missed that part

Not at all. I guess you missed the part in which I both agreed with that statement and pointed out that it is minimizable. Xrd and Skullgirls have both eliminated all meaningful OS. They also play a less significant role in most other fighters. If these were to go through as-is, then I'd argue that even SFIV has fewer option selects since these are so obtrusive, they literally have the potential to affect almost every string in the game.

And simply because they exist in all fighters, doesn't mean that you don't stamp out the more egregious ones.

By way of analogy, should they stop bug fixing since there will always be bugs?

 

[corsis]

Not at all. I guess you missed the part in which I both agreed with that statement and pointed out that it is minimizable. Xrd and Skullgirls have both eliminated all meaningful OS. They also play a less significant role in most other fighters. If these were to go through as-is, then I'd argue that even SFIV has fewer option selects since these are so obtrusive, they literally have the potential to affect almost every string in the game.

And simply because they exist in all fighters, doesn't mean that you don't stamp out the more egregious ones.

By way of analogy, should they stop bug fixing since there will always be bugs?

xrd still has a pretty decent amount of option selects, you make it sound like the only one is the throw os and ignore that os' like yrc os exist and give free burst punishes if done right, also the command throw/yrc/air throw os

i think you can argue the meaningfulness of said os' but they exist and im sure there are many players using them in a large portion of their matches

 

[qspec]

xrd still has a pretty decent amount of option selects, you make it sound like the only one is the throw os and ignore that os' like yrc os exist and give free burst punishes if done right, also the command throw/yrc/air throw os

i think you can argue the meaningfulness of said os' but they exist and im sure there are many players using them in a large portion of their matches

I intentionally neglected to mention those because they are being patched out. A developer seeing an OS and patching it out is the correct response, I've no reason to kick that horse deader.

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Guilty_Gear_Xrd_-SIGN-_1.10_patch_notes

Relevant part: "Burst YRC OS removed: Will get Red Roman Cancel during opponent's Blue Burst startup"

Moreover, and not to justify it because I thought it should be patched out as well, we are talking in terms of ones. In MKX we are talking in terms of nigh every combo for every character.

The scope and the scale aren't the same. But again, if the dev's patch it out (and it sounds like they are going to), then I won't kick that horse either. It's the right response.

 

[Barrogh]

and honestly, this just makes hit confirming easier.

Nope. It makes possible to "hitconfirm" single hits into special cancel, something impossible to do without OS. That is exactly the reason I have problems with this. You know there is a problem when overhead that leads to huge damage and vortex that is supposed to be -67 on block suddenly becomes -7 without sacrificing said damage and vortex (normally -7 on block option only leads to 10% and barely positive KD, but with this you won't ever be rewarded with so little again).

I say it's a player that should make a call on how much he's willing to risk and get rewarded accordingly, that's all. OS just takes away this layer of metagame.

I'm not saying it's something that wins games alone, but saying that it doesn't matter that your high reward mixup is suddenly safe against half of the cast... Ugh, I don't know.

And finally, argument that "all FGs had OS" isn't really an argument. Does it mean people can live and compete with it? Yes. Does it mean it's beneficial to gameplay? Nope, it isn't necessarily so.

 

[IDYLEHANDZ]

i clearly didn't understand the instructions. Kotal OS hasn't worked a single time for me. Not sure if this is actually getting patched... Is this worth learning? If so, can anyone try to help me understand how this is supposed to go? I feel like I have completely missed the instruction here.

 

[Evil_Riu48]

it has been patched and it is already out of the game. you can not longer use this type of OS

 

[rafaw]

it has been patched and it is already out of the game. you can not longer use this type of OS

Is this 100% sure?

 

[Evil_Riu48]

Is this 100% sure?

i guess because i use to do it with no problem and last night i could not do it even once .

i when in the practice room and try the one that in which the special will come out on hit and nothing will come out on block and the special would always come out on block

i even try it with a 3 hits strings doing it as fast as i could and then trying to cancel the specials right after it and the special would always come out on block.