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Breakthrough - Kung Lao [EO Beta Closed] Kung Lao Beta Changes Discussion

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coolwhip

coolwhip

Master
Tweedy said:
Disagree. Checking people with D4 was cool. What makes this nerf so significant, is that now following up with his main strings, B321 and 11212, isn't really an option anymore. Even if someone pokes and eats D4 or F2, it's not that big of a deal since you have no hat on your head. Before they had to armor to beat B321, and 11212 jailed if done correctly. Now you can just check someone, while still risking getting armored.
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What do you mean? If they eat a d4 after an ex~hat on block you get to run forward and do a 11212 into ex hat. There's enough time for the hat to reappear.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
jokey77 said:
This discussion has turned into an irrational slugfest, mostly because of the kung lao community being pretty blind when it comes to the problems with ex-spin. To be fair, this worked for Kenshi, who got plenty of buffs. Yet you all miss the point:

It is not like ex spin was solely an "Anti Ait tool" like Foxy Grampa said. It can even be used to punish most pokes! And it is fine as it is: a punishing tool! There is no need to turn it into a "get out of any pressure"-card as well.

Kung Lao got plenty tools to anti air, he doesn't even need ex spin for this. He just shouldn't be able to turn minus frames into a guessing game that is in his favour. Of course the opponent will try to press buttons once he gained frame advantage. Like every other character KL should have to respect said minus grames, given that he got into a disadvantageous situation because of bad fundamentals in the first place. Saying anything else is hypocritical! If you want diverse gameplay and fundamentals, then you must be against moves like spin.

I know for sure, that @StealthyMuffin @Udun @aieches @MK_Al @st9rm and some other respected TYM-members share my point of view and appreciate my way to speak things out - as honest, loud and clear as necessary.
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Paul the Octopus

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
A F0xy Grampa said:
The guessing game is never in his favour when he's minus if he has to spin.
The risk = 1 Bar lost and opponents max damage bnb (usually more than 32%)
The gain = 32% and oki

Also, how can you say that being put at minus frames is a sign of bad fundamental play? You realise that Lao only has 2 ways to get + frames, 1. Using ex hat, and 2. landing a hit. So actually, by your logic having anything blocked by Lao is bad fundamental play?

If all those players agree with you, you're all wrong.
Every game has moves you have to bait, the spin is no different IF you're playing against a psycho that wants to spin. Also, what about moves like Cages ex nutpunch, Ferra Torrs uppercut etc. These moves all follow the same rules, and there are moves safer than that too.
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To be fair - the risk and the gain for KL in that scenario seem quite balanced to me. It's slightly unfavorable for KL, but the magnitude of the disadvantage is small. What would you say the average max damage mid-screen bnb in this game is? 34-35%? That's pretty close to a 1:1 ratio (32/34.5 is equal to almost 1).

For most other characters, the risk/reward for armoring at negative frames is MUCH worse. Particularly if you don't have an armored launcher or your armored launcher is very low damage (i.e., Liu Kang, D'Vorah, Ermac, Sub Zero, non-BS Shinnok, non-outlaw EB, non-warlock Quan, non-bojutsu Kung Jin, Jacqui, Scorpion, etc.). For those characters, the risk reward ratio is 1:2 or worse. And then you have characters with easily broken armor (i.e., Predator), who's risk/reward ratio is seemingly balanced but it's not really because the opponent can just go with their armor breaking string and not play that guessing game.

I agree KL is not at an advantage when he's at minus frames - that's silly. But he's definitely not at any huge disadvantage either, which is a lot more than most other characters can say.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Paul the Octopus said:
To be fair - the risk and the gain for KL in that scenario seem quite balanced to me. It's slightly unfavorable for KL, but the magnitude of the disadvantage is small. What would you say the average max damage mid-screen bnb in this game is? 34-35%? That's pretty close to a 1:1 ratio (32/34.5 is equal to almost 1).

For most other characters, the risk/reward for armoring at negative frames is MUCH worse. Particularly if you don't have an armored launcher or your armored launcher is very low damage (i.e., Liu Kang, D'Vorah, Ermac, Sub Zero, non-BS Shinnok, non-outlaw EB, non-warlock Quan, non-bojutsu Kung Jin, Jacqui, Scorpion, etc.). For those characters, the risk reward ratio is 1:2 or worse. And then you have characters with easily broken armor (i.e., Predator), who's risk/reward ratio is seemingly balanced but it's not really because the opponent can just go with their armor breaking string and not play that guessing game.

I agree KL is not at an advantage when he's at minus frames - that's silly. But he's definitely not at any huge disadvantage either, which is a lot more than most other characters can say.
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It's not a 1:1 ratio, only in damage, you didnt take into account the 1 bar as well.
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
whoa whoa whoa..... first off


secondly ... umm whats going on in here?

**READS LAST FEW PAGES**

i think @jokey77 just tagged us because we have had many an argument on match ups yet, we can just agree to disagree at times and still keep it civil and debatable. cause IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, SHOULD ANYBODY TAKE MY WORD ON LAO OVER @A F0xy Grampa - duh - i think everyone knows way better than that to assume thats what jokeyy was implying. He was pointing out that he himself speaks up and says how he feels about things. And even though he trolls - he does have/make serious points hed like to convey here and there. i mean He pretty much wants takeda to fight with butter knives and ramen noodle whips & voices his concerns very openly about it - i dont agree with his distaste for takeda - but , hes call it how he sees it, & puts up a valid argument when hes serious about it. so i can respect it. plus he went out of his way to offer help if i needed it finding a room or hotel for Viennality. so that was pretty stand up .

I dont think this was a troll post from him - i just think he feels this strongly about KL . as half this forum does. and if it was a troll post.. then apparently it worked.


now with that out of the way (& since im already in here:coffee:) - i really cant speak on the nerfs yet cause ive only played like 5 matches vs KL but if i had to say something, on paper, some of the nerfs i feel were warranted but some i dont think were really necessary or a bit to harsh , but ive only just kinda skimmed though these in the early pages so theres prob even more i havent even noticed/read. punishing ex spin was never really a problem for takeda so im really neither here nor there about it..if by march 1 the nerf is gone, im not gonna loose sleep over it- BUT -if its stays- its seems like its gonna be a lot easier to punish with 44 which is gonna put more damage on the table .

before i rated Shirai Ryu vs Tempest 6-4 in KL's favor before.. but now, with the little skiming of the pages- i feel if the changes i read so far stick, its gonna be 5-5 least on paper. imo

so everyone - pls continue-- imma dip back to my takeda forums where im safe until all this calms down lol
 
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Trustypatches

Trustypatches

PSN: Boweeen, Twitch: rBoweeen
A F0xy Grampa said:
He had the best jump attack, but that worked for him because his grounded movement is crap too.
Now he cant get a B3 check after ex hat, his pressures dead.
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I get that his backdash and walkspeed are awful, but does his run speed combined with f2 and d4 not make his grounded movement a bit better than crap?
 
Trustypatches

Trustypatches

PSN: Boweeen, Twitch: rBoweeen
Eddy Wang said:
offensively? Yes, defensively? No.

Kung Lao was designed to move forward most of the time and hardly moving backwards.
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I get that, I was just saying that I wouldn't call his movement overall crap. Still, despite jump 2 being potentially nerfed (I have seen varying opinions with how it has been changed), he still has the ability to jump back divekick on people using forward advancing moves, like he could jump back 2.
 
SylverRye

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
aieches said:
it is .. i mean i just got tagged in a kung lao thread.... i cant even go online today now cause with my luck ill get matched up with a beast KL player- get mopped and will forever be know as Free to sweet and low Lao
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Lmao i mean, i dont agree with his nerfs, but it is what it is. My character got hit, cassie did too and quan and tanya are gonna get gutted, we can either work around the nerfs, or just use someone else lol
 
Trustypatches

Trustypatches

PSN: Boweeen, Twitch: rBoweeen
SylverRye said:
Lmao i mean, i dont agree with his nerfs, but it is what it is. My character got hit, cassie did too and quan and tanya are gonna get gutted, we can either work around the nerfs, or just use someone else lol
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I can understand frustration. If you look at someone like foxy who makes actual money from this game, you can see how a nerf like this could be really bad for someone. It's a lot of invested time in a character to throw away too at this point.
 
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TheGoldenJew

TheGoldenJew

PSN: The_Golden_Jew1
aieches said:
whoa whoa whoa..... first off


secondly ... umm whats going on in here?

**READS LAST FEW PAGES**

i think @jokey77 just tagged us because we have had many an argument on match ups yet, we can just agree to disagree at times and still keep it civil and debatable. cause IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, SHOULD ANYBODY TAKE MY WORD ON LAO OVER @A F0xy Grampa - duh - i think everyone knows way better than that to assume thats what jokeyy was implying. He was pointing out that he himself speaks up and says how he feels about things. And even though he trolls - he does have/make serious points hed like to convey here and there. i mean He pretty much wants takeda to fight with butter knives and ramen noodle whips & voices his concerns very openly about it - i dont agree with his distaste for takeda - but , hes call it how he sees it, & puts up a valid argument when hes serious about it. so i can respect it. plus he went out of his way to offer help if i needed it finding a room or hotel for Viennality. so that was pretty stand up .

I dont think this was a troll post from him - i just think he feels this strongly about KL . as half this forum does. and if it was a troll post.. then apparently it worked.


now with that out of the way (& since im already in here:coffee:) - i really cant speak on the nerfs yet cause ive only played like 5 matches vs KL but if i had to say something, on paper, some of the nerfs i feel were warranted but some i dont think were really necessary or a bit to harsh , but ive only just kinda skimmed though these in the early pages so theres prob even more i havent even noticed/read. punishing ex spin was never really a problem for takeda so im really neither here nor there about it..if by march 1 the nerf is gone, im not gonna loose sleep over it- BUT -if its stays- its seems like its gonna be a lot easier to punish with 44 which is gonna put more damage on the table .

before i rated Shirai Ryu vs Tempest 6-4 in KL's favor before.. but now, with the little skiming of the pages- i feel if the changes i read so far stick, its gonna be 5-5 least on paper. imo

so everyone - pls continue-- imma dip back to my takeda forums where im safe until all this calms down lol
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Interesting cause me and @Red Raptor feel its currently 5-5
 
I AM MOSSBERG

I AM MOSSBERG

Mortal
I need someone smarter than me to help guide me. I am unable to break down these games myself. What are my pressure options with this new Lao? Just stagger the string and pray they don't counterpoke and start their pressure?

The ex-hat is completely useless in the neutral and is now a complete waste for pressure.

Against knowledgeable players, I simply don't see how he wins now.
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
TheGoldenJew said:
Pre beta sir
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okay - yeah in our takeda conversation we have - i think raptor said that it was 5-5 there too. personally imo i feel like KL has few more notches on his tool belt to deal with takeda than vice versa. but then again this is at my current skill level.. maybe one i skill up a bit more i can see it at 5-5 pre- beta..
 
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