Ed Boon reveals a sneak peak at Sektor game play, a new Sonya Kameo move, and more!

#76

Vulgar said:
You should see Everything, Everywhere, All At Once. It answers that very question.

Thats my favorite movie all time. Beating out The Grand Budapest Hotel.

V

#77

Kiss the Missile said:
Thats my favorite movie all time. Beating out The Grand Budapest Hotel.

It's absolutely excellent. You have great taste in movies.

#78

@Eji1700 I know lot word, so I no say evil when mean savage

Also, if you made a Chimp character and he did these things, that would bean evil character, sure. Would every Human Chimp need be evil? Do you see the irony of arguing for a race of evil monkey men when this conversation started off about Racism in Tolkeins work? Why couldn't some of the monkey men retain more Human traits?

It's still just nature for the monkey to do that. It isn't evil. This is very psuedo intellectual and I'm not gonna debate it anymore.

#79

ImpostorOak said:
@Eji1700 I know lot word, so I no say evil when mean savage

Also, if you made a Chimp character and he did these things, that would bean evil character, sure. Would every Human Chimp need be evil? Do you see the irony of arguing for a race of evil monkey men when this conversation started off about Racism in Tolkeins work? Why couldn't some of the monkey men retain more Human traits?

It's still just nature for the monkey to do that. It isn't evil. This is very psuedo intellectual and I'm not gonna debate it anymore.

Where is the racism in Tolkien's work?

#80

Just wondering, but where did this, "Tolkien is a known racist" claim come from?

T

#81

This is what happens when you charge 50 dollars for six characters and some cinema scenes.

#82

Marinjuana said:
Where is the racism in Tolkien's work?

There's a Foreward in the initial run of The Lord of The Rings that states, and I'm paraphrasing:
"Guys this book isn't a reflection on my views, that would be bad. This is NOT racist because it's FAKE, guys, c'mon! I HATE racism."

If that's not a red flag, then I'll pull up some direct quotes and explanations.

#83

ImpostorOak said:
If that's not a red flag, then I'll pull up some direct quotes and explanations.

I would appreciate that.

#84

ImpostorOak said:
There's a Foreward in the initial run of The Lord of The Rings that states, and I'm paraphrasing:
"Guys this book isn't a reflection on my views, that would be bad. This is NOT racist because it's FAKE, guys, c'mon! I HATE racism."

If that's not a red flag, then I'll pull up some direct quotes and explanations.

Yeah let's go with the real quotes. Maybe your own view too.

#85

Racism

Some fans and critics of J.R.R. Tolkien's works could observe several ambiguously racist and race-based elements; these go further into stereotyping or the symbolism...

tolkiengateway.net

Since I guess a lot of yall have never heard of these claims, here's a source. Albeit, this site is heavily biased toward Tolkein, obviously, it's in the URL. But many of the claims, from Literary Doctors, are posted on this web page.

There is no hard and fast way to prove he was racist, but the allegations and evidence has been known and pointed out for years. It's up to you what to believe, but many of the similarities and themes are at best influenced by historical stereotypes.

At worst, racism. At best, not as creative as Hobbit Nerds wanna pretend and heavily influenced by Victorian Era racial stereotypes. Just literally made the real world "magic," and crammed together a bunch of real world events and time periods.

#86

ImpostorOak said:
Racism

Some fans and critics of J.R.R. Tolkien's works could observe several ambiguously racist and race-based elements; these go further into stereotyping or the symbolism...

tolkiengateway.net

Since I guess a lot of yall have never heard of these claims, here's a source. Albeit, this site is heavily biased toward Tolkein, obviously, it's in the URL. But many of the claims, from Literary Doctors, are posted on this web page.

There is no hard and fast way to prove he was racist, but the allegations and evidence has been known and pointed out for years. It's up to you what to believe, but many of the similarities and themes are at best influenced by historical stereotypes.

At worst, racism. At best, not as creative as Hobbit Nerds wanna pretend and heavily influenced by Victorian Era racial stereotypes. Just literally made the real world "magic," and crammed together a bunch of real world events and time periods.

In your view, what racist themes and stereotypes are being used by Tolkein?

This has been around a long time, there's even a Wikipedia page about it. It's very thin tbh

T

#87

Law Hero said:
Just wondering, but where did this, "Tolkien is a known racist" claim come from?

The general consensus is because all the good characters in his books are white, and all the bad ones are not. Orcs, Saurons allies , etc. lacking truly specific depictions in book, many people (racists) have just assumed there was intent.

But Tolkien was a well to do Brit in WW1 era UK. His SON put the LOTR legacy together after his death from old manuscripts and journals in the 60s and 70s and frankly if his writing wasn't pro white, no one would have EVER read it.

Tolkien died WELL before receiving the acclaim we give his books today. He never even finished the Silmarilion, the actual origin story of his universe. Meanwhile IRL He stood against the Nazis, which is half the reason his literary work was largely ignored for years.

There are so many bigger and more overt bigots in literature. Not born in a super racist period of time in a super racist country. This poor man will never get to rest.

#88

ImpostorOak said:
Racism

Some fans and critics of J.R.R. Tolkien's works could observe several ambiguously racist and race-based elements; these go further into stereotyping or the symbolism...

tolkiengateway.net

Since I guess a lot of yall have never heard of these claims, here's a source. Albeit, this site is heavily biased toward Tolkein, obviously, it's in the URL. But many of the claims, from Literary Doctors, are posted on this web page.

There is no hard and fast way to prove he was racist, but the allegations and evidence has been known and pointed out for years. It's up to you what to believe, but many of the similarities and themes are at best influenced by historical stereotypes.

At worst, racism. At best, not as creative as Hobbit Nerds wanna pretend and heavily influenced by Victorian Era racial stereotypes. Just literally made the real world "magic," and crammed together a bunch of real world events and time periods.

I'm just curious, but have you gone through the link you posted? Nearly every point of racism in that document is refuted at the end of the related point. Almost every point is, "Critics of Tolkien claim this may be racist, but there is either no real evidence for it or there is evidence against it." I just bring this up because, typically, I tend to agree with almost all of your posts and I consider them generally well-thought out and insightful; however, this one seems more like you heard it from somewhere and are just rolling with it.

#89

trufenix said:
The general consensus is because all the good characters in his books are white, and all the bad ones are not. Orcs, Saurons allies , etc. lacking truly specific depictions in book, many people (racists) have just assumed there was intent.

But Tolkien was a well to do Brit in WW1 era UK. His SON put the LOTR legacy together after his death from old manuscripts and journals in the 60s and 70s and frankly if his writing wasn't pro white, no one would have EVER read it.

Tolkien died WELL before receiving the acclaim we give his books today. He never even finished the Silmarilion, the actual origin story of his universe. Meanwhile IRL He stood against the Nazis, which is half the reason his literary work was largely ignored for years.

There are so many bigger and more overt bigots in literature. Not born in a super racist period of time in a super racist country. This poor man will never get to rest.

I'm not a Lord of the Rings superfan or nerd, but I've seen and heard my fair share regarding Tolkien. His intentions with Lord of the Rings has always been very clear: Tolkien was dismayed by the fact that native British folklore had been completely eroded and lost to time. As a result, he created LotR for the purpose of making his own British folklore, and he used themes, creatures, etc from Celtic, Germanic, and Norse mythology. Also, although he openly criticized allegory, there are themes of war and it's negative affects on communities (the end of LotR, for example, shows the once-quiet Shire turned into a loud and industrious town as a result of war).

I appreciate your polite response, though I don't think Tolkien being a well-off Brit is evidence of racism. When looking at the evidence, every actual interview with and quote of Tolkien has been overtly anti-bigoted by both standards of the past and present. I don't have a dog in this fight, nor am I accusing you of doing this, but I do think it's distasteful for people to call others bigots without any prove or substantive evidence.

#90

Marinjuana said:
Yeah let's go with the real quotes. Maybe your own view too.

My own view? Tolkein made all the good races caucasian and from the West. He made all the evil races non-humans and from the East.

Here's Tolkein's description of Orc's(the iredeemable and bad bad bad guys), amidst WW2 and an anti-Asian sentiment being popular:
“squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol-types.”

Yall can defend or call me woke or whatever, but from what I see there's a very shallow good vs evil story with prejudiced undertones.

Tolkein was a racist. People have been saying it for 30+ years, and when you look into it, the only defense to his side was that he said he wasnt racist and hated Hitler.

#91

Law Hero said:
I'm just curious, but have you gone through the link you posted? Nearly every point of racism in that document is refuted at the end of the related point. Almost every point is, "Critics of Tolkien claim this may be racist, but there is either no real evidence for it or there is evidence against it." I just bring this up because, typically, I tend to agree with almost all of your posts and I consider them generally well-thought out and insightful; however, this one seems more like you heard it from somewhere and are just rolling with it.

That's what my post said. This site is biased, but the points of contention are there. They are as "refuted," as they are "proven."

I'm gonna dip on this, it's impossible to know who would argue in good faith, who has an actual education, who cares, etc.

I'm not trying to piss in anyone's cheerios, I'm not alone in thinking this way of Tolkein and Lovecraft and lesser artists not worth naming.

Be easy, yall. Anyone who likes any media franchise enough to defend it from real world issues needs help. Idol Worship was a brick in the path for Rome.

#92

ImpostorOak said:
My own view? Tolkein made all the good races caucasian and from the West. He made all the evil races non-humans and from the East.

Here's Tolkein's description of Orc's(the iredeemable and bad bad bad guys), amidst WW2 and an anti-Asian sentiment being popular:
“squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol-types.”

Yall can defend or call me woke or whatever, but from what I see there's a very shallow good vs evil story with prejudiced undertones.

Tolkein was a racist. People have been saying it for 30+ years, and when you look into it, the only defense to his side was that he said he wasnt racist and hated Hitler.

From the source you posted earlier:
"Orcs, however, are not Men. Unlike the wicked Men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, Orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of Orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery or the descendants of tortured and ruined Elves or Men. Regardless of their origins, they are not presented as a natural race.[30]"

I'm not calling you any names, but I do believe your claims are hasty and unfounded.

#93

Law Hero said:
From the source you posted earlier:
"Orcs, however, are not Men. Unlike the wicked Men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, Orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of Orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery or the descendants of tortured and ruined Elves or Men. Regardless of their origins, they are not presented as a natural race.[30]"

I'm not calling you any names, but I do believe your claims are hasty and unfounded.

I appreciate that you enjoy my posts, and also respect you attempting to understand my position.

Literally, in that series, good is associated with whiteness. There's no POC in the book or films. Orcs were based on Japanese stereotypes, by his own account. The Geographical moral superiority comes from him basing The Shire on Europe, and the being the morally superior land with all the other lands having the undesirables.

Those things are real, can't be refuted, and we can only speculate why they are the way they are. Even the man himself saying it's a coincidence can't be enough, cause how many times have we all heard, "but I have black friends, I hate Trump, I'm not a racist..etc."

I'm of the opinion that he was bigoted and that came through in his work. I don't believe he intentionally wrote things to be racist allegories, I think it's just what he believed and his imagination was shaped around that.

#94

ImpostorOak said:
My own view? Tolkein made all the good races caucasian and from the West. He made all the evil races non-humans and from the East.

Here's Tolkein's description of Orc's(the iredeemable and bad bad bad guys), amidst WW2 and an anti-Asian sentiment being popular:
“squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the least lovely Mongol-types.”

Yall can defend or call me woke or whatever, but from what I see there's a very shallow good vs evil story with prejudiced undertones.

Tolkein was a racist. People have been saying it for 30+ years, and when you look into it, the only defense to his side was that he said he wasnt racist and hated Hitler.

What about the Goblins? The Balrogs? Haradrim? The Corsairs of Umbar? What was he trying to say about Dwarves with their greed for gold? Were corrupted Theoden, crazy Denethor and bitchmade Wormtongue supposed to signify that whiteness is good?

I'm not sure that Tolkein was trying to channel anti-Japanese sentiment with his race of corrupted evil beings from the firelands who serve a fallen angel. Maybe he was a bigoted person, I'm not married to the idea that he wasn't, but you don't see it reflected in the books.

#95

ImpostorOak said:
I'm of the opinion that he was bigoted and that came through in his work. I don't believe he intentionally wrote things to be racist allegories, I think it's just what he believed and his imagination was shaped around that.

I understand your opinion, and even though I have plenty to say in regards to your post, I know you want to bow out of the conversation, so I'll leave it at that as well. I don't want anyone to accuse either of us of trying to sneak in the last word of a "debate" or anything like that.