Ease of approach to new FG's

[Crathen]

We had a similar convo in another thread http://testyourmight.com/threads/tutorial-mode-in-mkx.44694/

What some are missing is the complexity /= depth

Putting hella frontloading information in a fighting game is common mistake and it's one of the many reasons Fg are dropped in a 1-2 month span by casual players , they don't know forums or they simply don't have time / want to read huge wall of texts to just get started w the terms.

A good tutorial isn't made by text x100 , a good tutorial is integrated in a main game mode ( how about story mode wich everyone will play ) and slowly trains people how to use the tools the game handles them.

FGs have A LOT of work to do on their tutorials and this actually hurts # of people sticking to the game.

Another vid relevant on this:

 

[Hades]

I think the tutorial is key. I recently picked up super street fighter 4 when it became a free download on xbox live and i can not for the life of me get into the game. I have absolutely no grasp of how to do anything properly and when i go online i get wrecked.

I learned how to do a ryu fireball, shoryuken and his supers and ultras. I played through the arcade mode and enjoyed that so I decided why not jump online? I honestly don't know whats going on. Theres guys hitting me with like combos into supers and shit and i'm getting really salty. I'm like fuck it this 'trial' mode should help me out.... Man was I wrong. I get to like the 8th challenge and it says something like high punch, medium punch, light kick. I spend 40 minutes trying to do this one thing only to find out theres a timing to it and i've wasted 40 minutes of my life mashing buttons trying to do this shit.

My gripe is that they can't even explain how to properly get started on street fighter. I had to go online to find out how to do these 'linkers', I had to go online just to learn how to do a move with M. Bison or Guile. I really enjoy the game aesthetically, the characters are pretty cool and the online is very crisp. However I just can't get into the game with the knowledge that i'll have to look up everything I want to learn online. I don't know what moves link and half these characters I don't even know how to do the bloody moves.

tl;dr A good tutorial helps the casual player learn the game and get into the game and learn how to play properly. Without a good tutorial, many players such as myself turn away from a game because the game makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Vengeance135]

No tutorial is needed in Injustice when you have beginner characters like Aquaman and Doomsday. The Strategy guide even says they are geared for beginner characters

 

[JTB123]

I think it's a mixture of both really, but the main thing is that most people don't want to put the effort in to get better. They just want to do what they want and win, the second that stops working they no longer have fun, fighting games are not that complicated to understand really, it's just they require a lot of time invested to develop that fighting game sense, call it fundamentals, instinct or just simple experience. I don't think that is something you can teach, it's something you develop over time and there is no shortcut for it.

I think Tekken is a good example, I love Tekken and find it extremely fun to watch and just play. I understand the mechanics of Tekken and have pretty good execution, what makes Tekken "hard" to pick up in my opinion is that there are about 40 unique characters all with at least 100 moves to learn how to defend against. I don't think there is a way to teach defence against that in a quick way, you just need to play and practice.

I think the problem is people just don't want to put the time in required to get good at a game anymore, they want instant success with minimal effort and more than anything they want it to last, it's almost like an evolving meta game is bad.

@Karried - The gears comparison is a very good one, I played that constantly until Judgment came out. Gears had a great evolution throughout it's multiplayer life and they just removed and/or changed everything about it for Judgment, which is why the multiplayer is nowhere near as fun.

 

[Vagrant]

I think the concepts in fighting games remain the same. But I like that they're starting to ease up execution.

I think alot of games are easing up on the execution and I agree with that decision. You have to spend a tremendous amount of time practicing timing on some links/ combos before you really even get to start playing the meta. (which is the most interesting part of fighting games). A new player coming into SF will have to spend at least a month in the lab on consistently landing DPxxFADCxxUltra/ 1-2 frame link punishes before he even gets to start working on his gameplan. Which doesn't make sense to me because your forcing the player to unlock the rest of the game by grinding motion/timing exercises.

When I learned Mahvel I had to spend probably 2 weeks in the lab with Mag/Doom/Sentinel before I could consistently convert my bnbs in Marvel against opponents and move around effectively. And I'd been playing fighting games for years with pretty good execution. It was frustrating, I just wanted to get to the mind games already with other players.

I'm for easing up execution so newer players can focus on the meta quicker. I think injustice does this pretty well. I think KI does this extremely well. (easier execution combos = still viable. Harder execution combos = optimal but don't make the easier combos obsolete)

 

[Justice]

I think the tutorial is key. I recently picked up super street fighter 4 when it became a free download on xbox live and i can not for the life of me get into the game. I have absolutely no grasp of how to do anything properly and when i go online i get wrecked.

I learned how to do a ryu fireball, shoryuken and his supers and ultras. I played through the arcade mode and enjoyed that so I decided why not jump online? I honestly don't know whats going on. Theres guys hitting me with like combos into supers and shit and i'm getting really salty. I'm like fuck it this 'trial' mode should help me out.... Man was I wrong. I get to like the 8th challenge and it says something like high punch, medium punch, light kick. I spend 40 minutes trying to do this one thing only to find out theres a timing to it and i've wasted 40 minutes of my life mashing buttons trying to do this shit.

My gripe is that they can't even explain how to properly get started on street fighter. I had to go online to find out how to do these 'linkers', I had to go online just to learn how to do a move with M. Bison or Guile. I really enjoy the game aesthetically, the characters are pretty cool and the online is very crisp. However I just can't get into the game with the knowledge that i'll have to look up everything I want to learn online. I don't know what moves link and half these characters I don't even know how to do the bloody moves.

tl;dr A good tutorial helps the casual player learn the game and get into the game and learn how to play properly. Without a good tutorial, many players such as myself turn away from a game because the game makes absolutely no sense.

I totally agree, especially about the Street Fighter stuffs. I stopped playing SF with 2T because it was just too much to process at once with extremely high execution requirements and then the Turbo speed on top of it. I decided to get back into it with Ultra and I have no clue what's going on. The very first day, I hear about people releasing Red Focus kombos and I'm sitting in my living room going "WTF is Red Focus?" Trial mode is exactly that: TRIAL mode. Despite what Capcom says, it is NOT a tutorial mode. It will demonstrate what a character is capable of kombo-wise, but if you're looking for character basics and bnbs, go to youtube.

I had an interesting idea for a type of tutorial mode for fighters that actually based on Playstation All Stars of all games. It would start with the basics (how to move, specials, etc) and move on to spacing and zoning, and end with advanced techniques and kombos. Now the beauty of this mode that I am suggesting is that you are free to choose your character to practice with (I'm lookin at you MK9 ) except for maybe some of the very specific advanced tech tutorials and there is 3 grades. The three grades would be:

1. Learn the skill vs a dummy that either does nothing or next to nothing as the situation requires.
2. Use the skill vs and intermediate bot.
3. Use the skill vs and expert bot.

To unlock the next topic, all you have to do is pass the first challenge in each tutorial which would also unlock the 2nd challenge which would in turn unlock the 3rd so that the player can choose when and which topic to practice at their leisure.

Very bare-bones Idea I know but I just came up with it and spewed it out

 

[THTB]

Ideally it should be both, finding a way to streamline the way the game is played (in other words, better integrating things people use at a high level, like how link combos became chains) while creating better teaching tools.

Exactly.

 

[Peckapowa]

I do not agree with artificial difficulty in video games, but i do like depth and strategy. easy to learn hard to master is the way to go.

 

[NorCalSamurai]

Some really good ideas tossed out here, doods.

@Crathen You make a really good point in the difference between depth and complexity, and I'm with you on the whole "tutorials need to be more than text boxes" thing. The videos posted in this thread offer some cool alternatives to that problem, it's just a matter of A: Developers wanting to make an effort, and B: The player wanting to learn. This is a super cliche after-school special statement, but we need to make learning fun again. To FGC dudes like us, improving is fun, getting mechanics down is fun. But to the casual those things are a chore. We need to find a balance between information presentation and keeping the user interested.

@Vagrant I hadn't really considered the meta argument, you make a very good point that if they don't have to worry too much about execution that they can jump right into matchup learning and all that. But at the same time, I feel like with better, more enjoyable, easier to access teaching tools, we can more efficiently make casuals into better players before they even need to think about that. One of the big themes I've been reading in this thread is balance. Finding a way to keep the player having fun and staying interested during the learning process.

@Justice Solid idea. Teaches the player how to use their character not just in the lab, but when there's someone trying to punch them in the fucking neck. The SF trial modes and combo challenges in general are a good idea, but I agree with you that they are not good teaching tools. Hell, if you went by USF4 trials, you'd think jump-ins were the most gdlk viable option in your arsenal and you'd get your free ass bodied by anti-airs all day.

 

[Slamtastic]

Have a good tutorial, and avoid SF/KoF level execution requirements and link combos.

I for one play NRS games because I can look up a BnB, practice it for an hour, and have it down. Much less time fighting the game instead of my opponent, try9ing to execute what I know I should do in a situation. Less time in the lab playing single player for what people contend is a multiplayer genre.

There's still room for concepts of fighting games to be introduced and taught to players with a tutorial though, even if combos come more easily with less arbitrarily strict timing, so I hope devs step up their teaching game as well.

 

[Big Pampering]

Tekken isn't even neccessarily harder to learn. There is just so many moves and characters, nobody wants to deal with that stuff.

 

[VenomX-90]

SF 1987 and SF II, MK 1& 2 Fatal Fury 1&2 = Elementary or Beginner. Basically you did punch, kick and a couple of special moves and either did spear and uppercut or Freezball and uppercut and then you are a badass.

MK3 SFA 1,2,3 KOF series, Marvel Series, and Tekken in the '92-00's = Intermediate, you'd had have know the basics already and to have known the basis of combos and spacing etc.

FG's from 2001 - present = Highschool level and University level...Now they should not hold your hands and give you pointers, you should have graduated so go learn that shit and practice.

Lol

 

[Justice]

I also think that ALL game developers really need to read this article (and a lot of us too)

http://shoryuken.com/2011/11/29/six-psychological-tips-to-help-you-level-up-your-game-faster-part-1/
http://shoryuken.com/2011/12/22/six-psychological-tips-to-help-you-level-up-your-game-faster-part-2/
http://shoryuken.com/2012/01/16/six-psychological-tips-to-help-you-level-up-your-game-faster-part-3/