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Ease of approach to new FG's

What's the answer?


  • Total voters
    39

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
We've been hearing a lot of talk. Rumors of cash for performance in Street Fighter 5, Harada coming out and saying that Tekken 7 will be easier to pick up and that one of TTT2's failings was it's steep learning curve. And this worries me, because the fix is simpler than these big devs are making it out to be.

Now, I'm all for expanding the demographic.

More players = bigger tournaments = more exposure = bigger pots for top players to take = more hype.

The math is simple. But should the gameplay cater to newbs? Couldn't this theoretically take away from high level play? I for one think that fighting games should have a learning curve. It should take skill to win. The player should be the one to improve. Not the developer improving for them.

So how do you fix this without changing well-loved core gameplay? In my opinion, the answer is better, deeper tutorials.

Go out and ask your average non-fg specific gamer what "minus on block" or "+6 on hit" means. Ask them what an option select or a safe jump is. Go ahead. I'll wait.

You're back. They didn't know what the fuck you were talking about, did they?

Now run them through the tutorials in Skullgirls: Encore or BBCP, and ask them that same question. They might not fully understand frame data, but at the very least they'll understand that some moves, when blocked, have recovery and get punished, and that after you hit someone, sometimes you have the ability to keep attacking.

The current format for tutorials in FG's basically assumes that you have some knowledge of the basics. Frames, spacing, how hitboxes work, etcetera. If you don't know those things, you're gonna have a false sense of knowledge when you finish a game's intro, and then when you go online and get blown up by that dude who knows your frames, you're gonna salt out and go "This is too hard!"

Character specific tutorials should also be standard. They weren't perfectly executed in BBCP, but the idea was solid. Teach the player their characters normals and Drive (read: trait) in a simple format that gives them a good idea of the neutral game and what to do on hit or block. These are very basic tips that give the player a good idea of how to operate their character with minimal hand holding. With character specific lessons and a good basics tutorial, you can teach the player, before they've even played a human opponent or looked on a forum:

  • The shit I don't need to list (movement, blocking, etc.)
  • The idea of frame advantage and disadvantage (and possibly how to read frame data)
  • Their character's important normals and special moves
  • Their characters neutral game and safe/unsafe moves
  • A couple BNB's
  • Spacing
  • Mixups
All the things that make competitive fighting games....competitive.

These things we take for granted are golden information to that guy who knows how to throw a fireball but not much else. And if we can get those guys to level up, then we get bigger numbers. And bigger numbers is what's going to take the smaller scenes in the FGC from a niche to a fully respected eSport. Which means more pot bonuses, bigger and better majors, and better competition.

Thanks to @ShotgunInsanity for sharing this video. Covers my points with some alternate options as to teaching tools.

 
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NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
The main counter point to this would be budgetary reasons. This is 'murica, and shit ain't free. But if all it takes a is a few text boxes and an extra tutorial stage, then I see no reason why it would be too much more expensive.
 

HellblazerHawkman

Confused Thanagarian
Not gonna lie, for the two weeks I played Marvel, I never figured out how to do TAC's cause I was too stubborn to open the manual. Took me a day or two to figure out how to do X-Factors
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
Not gonna lie, for the two weeks I played Marvel, I never figured out how to do TAC's cause I was too stubborn to open the manual. Took me a day or two to figure out how to do X-Factors
This is a good point too. Some people don't want to have to learn. So we may have to force them. I say the "online" option doesn't even unlock until you've ran the tutorial and at least one character lesson. Force them to learn. Force them to have a chance.
 

ThaShiveGeek

Est In Harvey 1989
Yeah but everyone doesn't want to learn. Some people just want to play the game because its fun. I was chilling with my homeboy yesterday trying to explain to him how to play MK9 and IGAU. He didn't want to learn. As long as he can throw a ice ball with SZ he's good. He purchased the game too. Everyone doesn't want to play on a "high" level. Some people just want to play. I get what you're saying, but we make up a small portion of the sales from these games... They have to cater to the casual to sell the game. After all... It is a business. Its not like they're making the games for free and only developing them for tourney players.
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
Yeah but everyone doesn't want to learn. Some people just want to play the game because its fun. I was chilling with my homeboy yesterday trying to explain to him how to play MK9 and IGAU. He didn't want to learn. As long as he can throw a ice ball with SZ he's good. He purchased the game too. Everyone doesn't want to play on a "high" level. Some people just want to play. I get what you're saying, but we make up a small portion of the sales from these games... They have to cater to the casual to sell the game. After all... It is a business. Its not like they're making the games for free and only developing them for tourney players.
Very true, and at the end of the day the devs have to make that money. But I see it as a trade off. They add a few more informational text boxes without changing the core gameplay, and people who went into the tutorial just to learn the buttons walk out of it with more knowledge than intended. This causes people to improve before even starting, putting newbs at a higher level of play from the start. Being decent at something makes people want to get good at that thing. More people being good at said thing and talking about it gains exposure. What the devs don't realize is that catering to the FGC isn't as expensive as they think. And with a bigger playerbase and following (consider the idea that newbs who ran said tutorial didn't just do it to learn the game, they did it so they could stream monster and actually understand what they're watching), we could be making eSports money.
 

VenomX-90

"On your Knees!"
In BBCP it had a deep tutorial, on which how it explained frome the beginning of movement all the way to rushdown in teh last lesson with Azrael. I liked how when you chose each character they explained to you if that certain character was a zoner, rushdown etc. It would be awesome if more FG tutorials were like that.
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
In BBCP it had a deep tutorial, on which how it explained frome the beginning of movement all the way to rushdown in teh last lesson with Azrael. I liked how when you chose each character they explained to you if that certain character was a zoner, rushdown etc. It would be awesome if more FG tutorials were like that.
BBCP is a prime example of what I'm talking about. It was damn near perfect. Each character was broken down to their core mechanics and explained somewhat efficiently. Although the character tutorials could be confusing if you didn't know the moves they were referring to. If BBCP covered the basics of FG play as well as Skullgirls Encore did in their tutorial, it would have been flawless.
 
Better teaching tools.

I really have a distaste for casauls, for one they think they're good, so they talk shit. They have the most annoying gaming persona online ever, and are too ignorant to learn or accept any information.

I was a casual when I first started in the FGC, I came to TYM made a shitty noob thread because I didn't know that in order to cancel a special you're supposed to not finish the entire string, I learned by myself because I wanted to learn.

Casuals suck. They sucked in Gears of War, because they expected "Why isn't this Rifle killing, it's a Rifle, everyone just shotguns", maybe because it's not CoD and you're playing a 5 player cooperative game?

They suck, and Gears of War got easier to play and it turned to shit by the time Judgment came around. I don't want that to happen to FGs.

I really have a distaste for casuals.

I would play SF, it has a horrible tutorial, but I am to lazy to learn it and it's my fault, the game is good and fun to watch, but I'm not going to cry I can't play. I'm just lazy.
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
Better teaching tools.

I really have a distaste for casauls, for one they think they're good, so they talk shit. They have the most annoying gaming persona online ever, and are too ignorant to learn or accept any information.

I was a casual when I first started in the FGC, I came to TYM made a shitty noob thread because I didn't know that in order to cancel a special you're supposed to not finish the entire string, I learned by myself because I wanted to learn.

Casuals suck. They sucked in Gears of War, because they expected "Why isn't this Rifle killing, it's a Rifle, everyone just shotguns", maybe because it's not CoD and you're playing a 5 player cooperative game?

They suck, and Gears of War got easier to play and it turned to shit by the time Judgment came around. I don't want that to happen to FGs.

I really have a distaste for casuals.

I would play SF, it has a horrible tutorial, but I am to lazy to learn it and it's my fault, the game is good and fun to watch, but I'm not going to cry I can't play. I'm just lazy.
I feel it, man. And I don't want what happened to GoW to happen to the FGC. We should not be watering games down for newbs, we should be enriching the newbs learning experience.
 
I feel it, man. And I don't want what happened to GoW to happen to the FGC. We should not be watering games down for newbs, we should be enriching the newbs learning experience.
League does a good job of this, it teaches you decently. But there is also a lot more player resources to learn and League is sorta complicated I think.
 

The Highlander

There can be only one
Nice post, I definitely believe a good tutorial system would bring in a lot of newcomers but I don't see what you're worried about. I think fighting games are always going to have that level of complexity and there is nothing that can really be done to simplify it without taking out some core fighting game design. Or am I missing something?
 

NorCalSamurai

Bacon Lettuce Tomato
Nice post, I definitely believe a good tutorial system would bring in a lot of newcomers but I don't see what you're worried about. I think fighting games are always going to have that level of complexity and there is nothing that can really be done to simplify it without taking out some core fighting game design. Or am I missing something?
My main worry is that casual FG players will bitch and moan until the complexity is drained out of them. Fighting games are meant to be difficult. There's a certain sense of satisfaction when improving in them. And if the developers start watering down their games to appeal to the casuals, I see it as a slippery slope towards boring and over-simple FG's. I'm not worried about today, but tomorrow is a concern.
 

Vengeance135

Saltiest Joker Player
Compared to what I'm used to, injustice is an easy game to pick up and get good at quick. However, games like Tekken and SF are really in depth with no real explanation because a good 70% of the tournament players have been playing them since the earlier stages of each game. To me it just seems if you want to learn at a high level buy the strategy guide from the start of the games life. Most guides are simple, minus capcoms, and give you a better understanding of what you are supposed to do with your character. I can see them maybe adding more tutorials and stuff like that but knowing how cheap capcom is they would take away like half the roster and sell them as DLC again like they did in SFXT. Tekken could maybe do it but no matter how many tutorials are on that game, you just need to learn every character and have natural knack for how to play footsies and etc. At least the people Like me who have been playing Tekken in since the arcade and PS1 days seem to thing this way. KOF is just a game with so many options, their tutorial actually wasn't to bad IMO. Great thread man 10/10
 
the game can be as complex as it wants to be, the only things that matter are the learning curve and the risk-reward balance.

for casuals you also gotta make sure they have something fun and spectacular to do, like throwing fireballs, which also has an effect damage-wise. so specials should have easy execution and good damage. but to prevent them from being too dominating on both low and high levels of play, they should be lacking good frame data at some point, like bad startup or be punishable. so theyre not abusable and turn people off at a casual level, and also dont make characters easily dominate on higher levels with easy executed tools. on the higher level these specials can still be good (and should be present just for good presentation effects of the game, "iconic moves") but need some pre-work like good spacing or mid-combo-use to be used effectively. Also basic strings count into this department.

i gotta think some more about the higher levels' design but it might look like that:

tools for the advanced levels can be designed around the basic tools. easiest example, lets say sub-Zero. you have an iceball and a laucher string with really slow startup, so slow it cannot really be used unless the opponent is frozen. your basic strings dont lauch. so you obviously first do the iceball as basic tool and then the launcher string, and on top of that maybe a string that only has use in juggles or is mabye even only available when the opponent is in the air.

something like that
 

NoobHunter420

Scrub God Lord
one of the reasons smash is so popular is because is so newbie friendly
a game can be complex and newbie friendly.
Fighting games get no viewer because the audience are the same guys that go to tournaments, casuals don't seem to understand what is going on.
this is why mk9 evo finals were received so well on ign, because it was one of the easier games for casuals to understand.
 

d3v

SRK
Ideally it should be both, finding a way to streamline the way the game is played (in other words, better integrating things people use at a high level, like how link combos became chains) while creating better teaching tools.
 

BlackViper415

TYM's Head Herpetologist
I feel that a little bit of both are kind of necessary in a way. While I don't think controls should be made braindead for every single character, I think developers should always put a character or two in the game that will allow newer players to learn the fundamentals of the game. That way, they can learn a bit more of what you're "supposed" to do rather than just mashing buttons and specials like it's Rock'em Sock'em Robots. Once they have a grasp on a basic character, they can graduate to more difficult characters that force you to learn the game at a more intricate level. I think that if every character in Injustice was as hard as say, Ares or Zatanna, the game wouldn't have built as large of a casual fanbase as it did. Same goes for Street Fighter IV. Sure the seasoned vets have their Gens and Akumas, but newer players don't have to be scared away because they can learn Sagat, Juri, or Ryu.

Almost every game should be easy to learn at a basic level, but hard to master. That way, you can still have your massive tournaments where high-level players who have mastered the game to its fullest can be easily separated from those who haven't put in the practice time, but newer players who don't care to compete or aren't yet skilled enough to compete don't have to be intimidated by ridiculous execution. They can play the game on a basic, mildly in-depth level and gradually get better.

I have friends who won't play Street Fighter with me because they were scared away by the intricate stuff like option selects and even some combos. However, I play Super Smash Brothers with them all the time. Why? Because Super Smash Brothers is easy to pick up and play at a basic level for even the most casual player. But there's a reason you don't see people who just spam Pit's arrows at a high level, and that's because the game is hard to master. I feel that most fighting games should be like that but all-in-all, I think poor tutorials are most of what's to blame. You can't make a game that has numerous concepts in it and then just plop the player in and say "LOL FIGURE IT OUT". This is not Myst. Maybe develop a system where after you teach the player the concepts of the game, you put them in a sample fight and reward them for using the different concepts. Make some kind of tutorial system that rewards them for getting better at the game.