What's new

Does the 2/3 format cause inconsistencies in tournaments?

Does the 2/3 format cause inconsistencies in tournaments?


  • Total voters
    52

Laos_boy

Meow Hoes
There might be inconsistent results here and there but I but in the end its the skill and momentum of the match.
Though there are a lot of ccomebacks yesterday. Which shows that skill is one of the main reasons of inconsistent results
 
Serious question: back when I followed competitive Marvel I didn't really know the names of any high level players aside from Jwong. How did results change from the shift from 2/3 to 3/5?
 

Icy Black Deep

Still training...
Wait a second...

Tekken Tag 2 gets three rounds and 3/5.
I don't play them, but my understanding is that 3D games have always been 3/5 rounds.
It appears that 3/5 matches is not uncommon, especially for top 8.

Somehow they manage.

And stream monsters absolutely hate it because it takes forever.
 

RIF

Kombatant
Serious question: back when I followed competitive Marvel I didn't really know the names of any high level players aside from Jwong. How did results change from the shift from 2/3 to 3/5?
It's hard to determine if anything would have changed with Marvel. Chris G was tired of the chaos. He perfected MorriDoom to combat the random nature of the game. People had to evolve. 2/3 against MorriDoom would be REALLY terrible. You have very little time to adapt to the most oppressive duo in the game.

Characters like Zero, Vergil, Viper, Morrigan, and Magneto weren't developed they way they are today. 2/3 was changed to 3/5 prior to these characters raising to their current dominance. Having said that, you consistently see the SAME top players in top 8s DESPITE the game being 'random'. There are always outliers in every tournament, but the top 10 players are nearly always present in top 8. If IGAU follows that trend, then, in time we will see a similar result.
 
It's hard to determine if anything would have changed with Marvel. Chris G was tired of the chaos. He perfected MorriDoom to combat the random nature of the game. People had to evolve. 2/3 against MorriDoom would be REALLY terrible. You have very little time to adapt to the most oppressive duo in the game.

Characters like Zero, Vergil, Viper, Morrigan, and Magneto weren't developed they way they are today. 2/3 was changed to 3/5 prior to these characters raising to their current dominance. Having said that, you consistently see the SAME top players in top 8s DESPITE the game being 'random'. There are always outliers in every tournament, but the top 10 players are nearly always present in top 8. If IGAU follows that trend, then, in time we will see a similar result.
Well then let me ask this: how long did it take for the top 10 marvel players in the world to become consistent with their placements?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
It is because the game was considered to be "too random".

I think the KDZ example is the best one. I never recall seeing Chris G win a major tournament and then not get out of pools, even in a game as insane as UMvC3.
Chris G was nearly unbeatable for long stretches in Marvel -- he's a once-in-a-generation player and comparisons to him aren't really fair.

Also matchups matter a lot less when the top characters (Zero, Virgil, Doom, etc) get used by everyone to destroy everybody else, and your anchor can always win the battle for your entire team.

In Injustice you have to know every matchup -- there's no way around it.
 

ThaShiveGeek

Est In Harvey 1989
This tournament is in the history books so I don't think dwelling will do anything but take away credibility of the people who played great this weekend. One must ask though.... why did it get switched to 2/3 for this tournament if the last few have been 3/5? I thought it was agreed upon by the community already. What happened?
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Shock and KN should have been in charged and owned everything that occured but didn't and there was no proper preparation done for hot fixes
I know Shock hotfixed everything beforehand, but these issues seem to happen at every tournament that runs on Xbox. I mean, has there been a single major on Xbox that didn't have hotfix or some kind of freezing issues? Literally CEO (which was a massive blow up), SCR, FR.. It happens over and over again.

There were hotfix issues at Kumite as well.

Literally the only time people aren't complaining about hotfixes at Xbox tournaments, is when they haven't realized the hotfix is missing yet.
 

ReD WolF

Lord of the Drip
FT3 should be the gold standard. It most certainly gives the players time to really focus on their gameplan
 

Captain Oxygen

The end of one combo is the beginning of another
We'll see how this plays out a TOTFC and Civil War, if things are run smoothly and on time things should be fine. Obviously though, more setups = faster pools.
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
No

When a game focuses on 50/50 coinflip GUESSING and crazy ass stages.

3/5 won't matter much more then 2/3.

I don't care how good you are, you can only guess right so many times.

"Top" players consistency will be challenged throughout the life of this game.

There are also a ton more better players getting out to tournys then we had for MK9.

Players that were "Top" in MK9 should not expect to get outta pools and make top 8 every time in this game, cause it's just not gonna happen.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
3/5 At Civil war next month. 1 year since Injustice has been out.

Going to be an awesome tourney and awesome 2nd year!
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
I handled mk at FR completely including
Seeding
Organizing
Prep
Stream
4g
Helping players fix issues ASAP
Patches
Some systems
Speakers

People knew who was in charge for mk , who to come to w issues and other than MK running late in 2012 it was perfect IMO
Agreed, it was one of the best tournys I've been too, very well organized, and we did the whole tourny in one day, and there was a fuck ton of people there. Good times for sure.

Sucks this year had so many issues.
 

Filipino Man

Retirement my ass
MUs are a big deal in this game I feel more so than any other fighting game that is out right now. That is because of the unique characteristics of each character and they don't really fall into the general archetype.

Honestly, inconsistencies are caused less by brackets because honestly, character choice should not be that big of a deal sooner or later - we will all be picking the characters that are top tier or do not have dominating matchups. The nature of the game means inconsistencies are also formed by the 2/3 format. The rounds in this game are not like SF4 or MK9 rounds. It makes it hard for a comeback so if someone gets a few lucky hits (and yes, even in high leveled fighting games, lucky hits happen) and that momentum shifts in a 2/3. A 3/5 makes it a tiny bit more consistent and honestly that should be the standard for IGAU because it helped Marvel a lot.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
No

When a game focuses on 50/50 coinflip GUESSING and crazy ass stages.

3/5 won't matter much more then 2/3.

I don't care how good you are, you can only guess right so many times.

"Top" players consistency will be challenged throughout the life of this game.

There are also a ton more better players getting out to tournys then we had for MK9.

Players that were "Top" in MK9 should not expect to get outta pools and make top 8 every time in this game, cause it's just not gonna happen.
Yea but think of this also

The guy wanting to do well
Never been to a tourney
Goes 0-2 spent $450

At least huge him a ft3 , he paid all that money to come compete

@P2W made the best post ever

He said inj top 8 was 65 min and tekken was 3 hours
 

EGGXI

Scary Bat
I agree the 3/5 would be awesome, but I think this thread is kind of insulting to the guys that made Top 8 at FR.

Basically what has been said here is "The guys I expected to place didn't. Those that did place shouldn't/couldn't/wouldn't beat those I wanted in Top 8 if it was different"

Like seriously this is kinda fucked up, like we go from one week of "we don't know who the best are, everyone is viable" to the next week of "well X player isn't placing so 2/3 must be fraudulent"
 

Jimmypotato

Mid Tier
Yea but think of this also

The guy wanting to do well
Never been to a tourney
Goes 0-2 spent $450

At least huge him a ft3 , he paid all that money to come compete

@P2W made the best post ever

He said inj top 8 was 65 min and tekken was 3 hours
I'm all for 3/5 man, I think the game is fast enough to do it in tournys, as long as there are more then 4 set ups for big tournys. If anything, at least top 8 should be 3/5.

But the thread question was does it cause inconsistencies, and I don't think it does. If anything 3/5 might cause more "inconsistency" because of how much stages play a factor in the game.
 

BlastX21

Mortal
The nature of the game causes randomness, but that doesn't mean that the 2/3 format doesn't add to that.

A 2/3 tells you absolutely NOTHING about who the better player is, and this is why I think its ignorant how some people 1. Put elite players on blast when they have a rare occurence of not making it out of pools, and 2. Change their mind on who the X of America is based on one tournament's results.

One player may beat another 8/10 times, but those 2 that they win can be the ones they win at the tourney.

A 3/5 doesn't really solve the problem because you can just replace 8/10 with 7/10 and have the underdog win the 3 matches necessary, but its still a better system because it allows for more adjustments to be made over the course of the set. 3/5 obviously won't tell you who the better player is definitively either, but it can make a more accurate guess than a 2/3.

But I recall a thread made awhile back where there was almost universal support for maintaining the 2/3 system because 3/5 would have some serious issues with time constraints. Personally I agree with that, which is why I'm not vehemently pushing for the actual implementation of 3/5 outside of top 8 or maybe even top 16. However, as to whether 2/3 can cause inconsistency, I don't think there's any doubt.
 

Sajam

Nightwing In Retirement
Alright, let's talk about why people who are struggling out of pools at some majors are making top 8 at the next, and vice versa. There a few main issues, so I'll try to cover them briefly.

1. Match Ups

Injustice has some incredibly lopsided match ups, and we are seeing lots of players take advantage of this. For example, two people who have had strong showings primarily based off of playing different matchups are Wonder Chef and PPJ. PPJ won NEC by smartly using a team of characters to deal with a wide array of match ups. None of the characters he used are considered super broken, but picking each character in favorable MUs that he understands very well means it's very easy for him to win, especially when his opponent loses the first game and has to go to their own counter pick or try and adapt to a hard match up. Chef proved to everybody how far you can get in a tournament through match up knowledge by picking one of a handful of characters specifically for his opponent. This man got 4th at a major by picking a favorable or match up he was super comfortable playing in every round of the tournament. Match ups are absolutely key to doing well. The reason a strong player like Bit lost so early at SCR but did so well at FR, is because he ran into somebody like Wound. That particular player was just somebody who countered his character, and he couldn't really do much about it. The same thing happened to Wound himself. Wound 100% deserved to make top 8 at SCR, but he ran into 2 players who were probably most prepared to deal with him. Given a slightly different bracket, it's 100% possible Wound could have made top 8 or maybe even won the tournament.

The lack of match up knowledge is also super important. Going into NEC, Tyrant was probably the least prepared to deal with Hawkgirl, as he had never played online since he didn't own the game, and nobody in SoCal was playing her. Almost everybody else had some kind of pocket character or match up knowledge to deal with that character but him, which makes a player like PPJ super hard for Tyrant to beat. This is just a single example, but in almost every single pool or bracket we've seen something similar happen in every upset. Strong players aren't ready for some MUs, because some MUs are so bad that you can't out "solid" people consistently, or they just aren't prepared for how to deal with the character they are fighting. You can't whiff punish somebody or out footsie them if you are stuck in a vortex you can't react to.

2. 50/50s and setups

This is an issue you will see often in Injustice. There are absolutely way too many setups that leave the opponent in an absolutely awful guessing game, and when they guess wrong they lose such an incredible amount of damage that coming back becomes more difficult. Combine that with the fact that tons of setups are 100% guesses on which way to block means that at any time super strong players can be taken out because they guessed wrong once or twice. Again, lack of match up knowledge is huge here. When players aren't familiar with a character or their dirt, the chances of them winning is drastically lower. You can't out footsie somebody when you are being put into a vortex or continuous 50/50s on every knockdown. Top players won't be able to play solid when they are forced into situations you have to guess you way out of. With the incredible amount of dirt and setups, it's impossible to safely assume that good players will do well consistently.

Also you have to take into account interactable setups. Tons of characters have setups that will take an entire life bar with the use of things on the stage, and everybody has setups on every stage now. When you fight a player like Slayer, getting hit once can be enough to literally end the match, since he has more than 1 setup that is 100% life or close to it. Players like Deg have come up with map specific infinites that require meter, but can essentially end the game if he has the resources and you get hit.

3. Stages

This comes back to match ups, but the main issue with stages is how drastically they can change tournament matches. Certain match ups can literally swing entirely in one characters favor or another depending on the stage. In a 50/50 stage select, it's entirely possible you will run into maps that absolutely give you opponent a lopsided advantage over you. In fact, non power characters suffer even more since two of the stages that are strong for them are repeated twice. Similarly, some gadget or acrobatic characters can absolutely dominate power characters with certain interactables. I've taken tournament sets with over 130% of my damage coming from the dumpster in gotham alley. The chances of us randoming that stage are small, but in the off chance that we do, you have a possibility of losing if you play a power character and get stuck in the corner, which is insane. Combine that with a bad match up and often times games almost become unwinnable.

4. Momentum

Injustice is probably one of the most momentum heavy fighting games I can think of. The strange part is that the momentum can swing heavily in a zoning or rushdown characters favor. A character who is zoning a character like NW can struggle to lose the match up if he gets first hit, and one interactable setup. After that, the amount of health risked getting in, combined with clash, interactables to contest, chip damage, push block, and that characters own damage potential can make the match almost end if a reasonable lead is gained.

Similarly characters can become absolutely overwhelmed by rushdown characters with strong setups. If your characters lack a strong wakeup game, and you get knocked down by a competent player using Wonder Woman, Flash, Batgirl, etc you might lose the game. If you guess wrong twice then the game can snowball to a ridiculous extent. Besides rush down characters having unseeable mixups and setups that force you to guess, most of them have an easy time pushing you to the corner as they drain your first life bar. If they get a hit in the corner and force an early clash, you might have already lost the game because you guessed wrong twice. Offense that strong is really only found in games like Marvel, which is why people often complain it needs 3/5 for consistency.

TLDR: Injustice is inconsistent because players absolutely can't consistently win against: Match ups heavily not in their favor, the incredible amount of dirt in unseeable/reactable setups, stages significantly helping/hurting their character, lack of MU knowledge for both characters and their setups, and the incredible importance of momentum to both offensive and defensive characters.

So yeah, that's it.