Question - Kung Lao Does Kung Lao have any frame traps?

[xMEECH]

when your opponent can still crush your options despite not being exactly his turn is what makes it a frame trap.

Not every frame trap needs to be plus on bock.

But if it's not plus on block... it's not a *frame* trap. It's a "I'm going to make your active frames whiff and hit you during your recovery frames" trap. Its still a "trap" but I just wouldn't call it the same as a *frame* trap.

I mean, that would make jumping out of tick throws "frame traps" because you're making the active frames of the command grab whiff and then punishing with a jump in during its recovery frames. They're two different things, being plus on block and doing your fastest poke to create a gap too small to possibly poke out of, and making a gap big enough to get a move out, but making it whiff and punishing it during the recovery frames.

Also, if Lao does 11212 and tries to do instant divekick, plenty of normals and specials will beat out the divekick. I mean in a mirror match lao himself can just raw spin and beat the divekick in this "frametrap", where if he tried to raw spin out of an *actual* frame trap, the aggresor's poke would stop the spin.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Im more inclined to agree with you anyway, the frame traps listed above i like to call those pseudo frame traps cuz your opponent still has options (like back dashing or OS) true frame traps (or true block strings, w/e) are gapless and crush all your opponents options. Imo anyway. But i was at one point a dvora main, and thats why i think this way lol

You can think that, but you'd be wrong since by definition frame traps MUST leave a gap to entice your opponent to press buttons. Block strings and frame traps are not the same thing.

 

[Eddy Wang]

But if it's not plus on block... it's not a *frame* trap. It's a "I'm going to make your active frames whiff and hit you during your recovery frames" trap. Its still a "trap" but I just wouldn't call it the same as a *frame* trap.

I mean, that would make jumping out of tick throws "frame traps" because you're making the active frames of the command grab whiff and then punishing with a jump in during its recovery frames. They're two different things, being plus on block and doing your fastest poke to create a gap too small to possibly poke out of, and making a gap big enough to get a move out, but making it whiff and punishing it during the recovery frames.

Also, if Lao does 11212 and tries to do instant divekick, plenty of normals and specials will beat out the divekick. I mean in a mirror match lao himself can just raw spin and beat the divekick in this "frametrap", where if he tried to raw spin out of an *actual* frame trap, the aggresor's poke would stop the spin.

Did you really just suggest to spin on a jumping back lao on a -3 move thinking dive kick its his the best bet?


take as you will, frame traps don't need to be plus, the concept of frame trap is, "if you press a button on a wrong instance you think you could take the advantage of, the opponent as equal chance to punish your crush attempt with a counter" afaik that is a frame trap.


Kabal NDC pressure in MK9 was a set of frame traps, where his F3~NDC or B1~NDC where all +1 but doing sequential he had an actual gap of 12 frames, so you could still hit kabal out with a 10f jab into a combo starter even with F32~NDC which was +2 and leaved an 11f gap.

But when he did a d3 out of the NDC and you blocked it, he was at -7, but trying to hit him with anything after than you probably get you killed, because he had a 9f mid to mask that number, a flash parry out of NDC to counter your own armor atempt, this is where the frame trap was.


Take Jin in Tekken for example:
F4~F was recently made +2 on block, but even when it was -2 he could still crush highs by doing 1+2 after doing F4~f on block to beat ppl trying to answer to him with a high, so Namco not only buffed F4~F to be +2 on block, but they made his F4 -5 on block and gave him a launching EWHF

Now Jin can poke all day with F4 without going into stance to ppl can press buttons thinking he is going into stance and punish it, and when he goes he has less chances of missing because he has a high crushing move, a parry that avoid immediate mids after canceling, and he is still at -1 when he cancels the stance after F4.

 

[xMEECH]

Did you really just suggest to spin on a jumping back lao on a -3 move thinking dive kick its his the best bet?

No. I just said that the spin would beat the divekick, making the gap between 11212 and divekick not a frametrap.

frame traps don't need to be plus, the concept of frame trap is, "if you press a button on a wrong instance you think you could take the advantage of, the opponent as equal chance to punish your crush attempt with a counter" afaik that is a frame trap.

That's not the concept of a frame trap. That includes anything that involves your opponent beating your buttons. That definition of a frametrap would include someone armoring after something negative on block, someone jumping out of a tick throw and punishing with a jump in, neutral jumping over a poke and whiff punishing with a NJP, etc. A frame trap is specifically something on block, a gap that is too small to get any of your pokes out. Prepatch Jason's d1 into d1 was a frametrap on sub/Liu/tremor since none of them had an 8 frame low poke. Anything +2 into a 7 frame low poke is a frame trap since nobody has a 5 frame poke.

Kabal NDC pressure in MK9 was a set of frame traps, where his F3~NDC or B1~NDC where all +1 but doing sequential he had an actual gap of 12 frames, so you could still hit kabal out with a 10f jab into a combo starter even with F32~NDC which was +2 and leaved an 11f gapg.

But when he did a d3 out of the NDC and you blocked it, he was at -7, but trying to hit him with anything after than you probably get you killed, because he had a 9f mid to mask that number, a flash parry out of NDC to counter your own armor atempt, this is where the frame trap was.

I didn't play MK9 or follow it so I'm not familiar with any tech from it. How fast was kabal's fastest low poke, and how fast is it compared to the rest of the cast? If F3xNDC and B1xNDC are both +1, they could be frametraps if kabal has the fastest poke in the game. If some characters have faster pokes and can beat kabals fastest poke with their fastest poke while kabal is +1, then they aren't frametraps.

You're saying the real frametrap is after I block his -7 on block d3? What you're describing isn't a frametrap, it's kabal having options to punish your buttons when he's minus. Like armoring or making your buttons whiff, these are not frame traps.

Take Jin in Tekken for example:
F4~F was recently made +2 on block, but even when it was -2 he could still crush highs by doing 1+2 after doing F4~f on block to beat ppl trying to answer to him with a high, so Namco not only buffed F4~F to be +2 on block, but they made his F4 -5 on block and gave him a launching EWHF

So when Jin does something -2, he can still low poke underneath a high? If I read that right, the same thing applies in MK, and it's not a frametrap. It's making your opponents active frames whiff, and whiff punishing. A frametrap hits your opponent before they can even get active frames out, that's the difference.

 

[Eddy Wang]

No. I just said that the spin would beat the divekick, making the gap between 11212 and divekick not a frametrap.



That's not the concept of a frame trap. That includes anything that involves your opponent beating your buttons. That definition of a frametrap would include someone armoring after something negative on block, someone jumping out of a tick throw and punishing with a jump in, neutral jumping over a poke and whiff punishing with a NJP, etc. A frame trap is specifically something on block, a gap that is too small to get any of your pokes out. Prepatch Jason's d1 into d1 was a frametrap on sub/Liu/tremor since none of them had an 8 frame low poke. Anything +2 into a 7 frame low poke is a frame trap since nobody has a 5 frame poke.




I didn't play MK9 or follow it so I'm not familiar with any tech from it. How fast was kabal's fastest low poke, and how fast is it compared to the rest of the cast? If F3xNDC and B1xNDC are both +1, they could be frametraps if kabal has the fastest poke in the game. If some characters have faster pokes and can beat kabals fastest poke with their fastest poke while kabal is +1, then they aren't frametraps.

You're saying the real frametrap is after I block his -7 on block d3? What you're describing isn't a frametrap, it's kabal having options to punish your buttons when he's minus. Like armoring or making your buttons whiff, these are not frame traps.



So when Jin does something -2, he can still low poke underneath a high? If I read that right, the same thing applies in MK, and it's not a frametrap. It's making your opponents active frames whiff, and whiff punishing. A frametrap hits your opponent before they can even get active frames out, that's the difference.

Kabal had a 9f mid combo starter, he could punish ppl trying to poke/combo out of him after a d3, the fastest pokes in MK9 with d3 were all 7f lows, you trying to respond kabal with a jab was just a super high risk since he is canceling NDC which if he did a full commitment there wasn't a gap.

My opinion haven't changed, not all frame traps needs to be plus, and some of them even need to be minus so your opponent gets invited to press buttons, only scrubs press buttons on plus pressure options.

Jin doesn't low poke, he launches ppl because his 1+2 crushes highs despite him being minus, its like a meterless armored launcher, same as his f4 launches on Counter Hit despite being a -5 on block move.

 

[Dogeofthesea]

I'm on Meech's side, as what Eddy has been saying is more like a "right read", not a technical frame trap. You are complicating things way too much

 

[Humongousfungus!]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and probably embarrass myself as I'm still new to the FGC and offer an alternative definition. I believe that a frame trap should look "visually" negative but in fact be positive, tricking your opponent into pressing a button, effectively trapping them.

An example being Jason's big boot, it's +7 on block but looks as if it's hugely punishable. But you can easily beat out your opponent with a B12 follow up.

 

[masherofbuttons]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and probably embarrass myself as I'm still new to the FGC and offer an alternative definition. I believe that a frame trap should look "visually" negative but in fact be positive, tricking your opponent into pressing a button, effectively trapping them.

An example being Jason's big boot, it's +7 on block but looks as if it's hugely punishable. But you can easily beat out your opponent with a B12 follow up.

but by that definition you would only be able to fall for a frame trap if you don't know the frames on the move. A frame trap wouldn't exist at a high level

 

[Humongousfungus!]

but by that definition you would only be able to fall for a frame trap if you don't know the frames on the move. A frame trap wouldn't exist at a high level

Surely knowing frame data would prevent all definitions of a frame trap. And it shouldn't exist at the high level for that very reason.

 

[masherofbuttons]

Surely knowing frame data would prevent all definitions of a frame trap. And it shouldn't exist at the high level for that very reason.

Being plus brings its advantages. There is a mindgame going on, if I follow up with my fastest normal it will beat out all your options (that's the frame trap). If you know that I can beat you out you are going to block. When I know you're going to block I can mix after my plus frames. When you block my frametrap I still build meter so it's a win-win for me.

 

[The_Tile]

But if it's not plus on block... it's not a *frame* trap. It's a "I'm going to make your active frames whiff and hit you during your recovery frames" trap. Its still a "trap" but I just wouldn't call it the same as a *frame* trap.

I mean, that would make jumping out of tick throws "frame traps" because you're making the active frames of the command grab whiff and then punishing with a jump in during its recovery frames. They're two different things, being plus on block and doing your fastest poke to create a gap too small to possibly poke out of, and making a gap big enough to get a move out, but making it whiff and punishing it during the recovery frames.

Also, if Lao does 11212 and tries to do instant divekick, plenty of normals and specials will beat out the divekick. I mean in a mirror match lao himself can just raw spin and beat the divekick in this "frametrap", where if he tried to raw spin out of an *actual* frame trap, the aggresor's poke would stop the spin.

I just want to say frame traps don't actuall have to be plus on block. You can do a -5 move but if the recovery is so small that you can't retaliate on reaction that is also considered a frame trap.

You can learn the frames all you want you still can't beat it out every time because you essentially have to make a read.

I'll use The Wang's example. MK9 Kabal could frame trap from his negative on block D3 because the recovery was so small you couldn't really react to seeing his D3 else you'd be eating his 9f combo starting mid.

He also had lots of other options instead of just doing a D3, he had plenty of options that you also couldn't react to which were actually plus on block so you couldn't poke back, this made you scared to press buttons and limited your reactions even more as you weren't just looking out for the D3 in a vacuum.

After typing this I think I've changed my mind a little, there's so many variables to a frame trap that it's hard to just give it one definition. It's essentially tricking someone into thinking they can press buttons then blowing them up for it but the move doesn't necessarily have to be plus on block.

I'll end with one more example. If Kung Laos 112124 string could be staggered on every single hit and every hit was -1, if you could react to every hit because the recovery was really high you could poke back every time seeing as he only has a 7f poke. If each hit had literally no recovery it wouldn't matter that hes slightly minus because he can still beat you out if you make the wrong read. Because of that example alone, a frame trap does not need to be plus on block, there's more variables to it than that.

 

[masherofbuttons]

I just want to say frame traps don't actuall have to be plus on block. You can do a -5 move but if the recovery is so small that you can't retaliate on reaction that is also considered a frame trap.

You can learn the frames all you want you still can't beat it out every time because you essentially have to make a read.

I'll use The Wang's example. MK9 Kabal could frame trap from his negative on block D3 because the recovery was so small you couldn't really react to seeing his D3 else you'd be eating his 9f combo starting mid.

He also had lots of other options instead of just doing a D3, he had plenty of options that you also couldn't react to which were actually plus on block so you couldn't poke back, this made you scared to press buttons and limited your reactions even more as you weren't just looking out for the D3 in a vacuum.

After typing this I think I've changed my mind a little, there's so many variables to a frame trap that it's hard to just give it one definition. It's essentially tricking someone into thinking they can press buttons then blowing them up for it but the move doesn't necessarily have to be plus on block.

I'll end with one more example. If Kung Laos 112124 string could be staggered on every single hit and every hit was -1, if you could react to every hit because the recovery was really high you could poke back every time seeing as he only has a 7f poke. If each hit had literally no recovery it wouldn't matter that hes slightly minus because he can still beat you out if you make the wrong read. Because of that example alone, a frame trap does not need to be plus on block, there's more variables to it than that.

Isn't the Kung Lao example what a stagger is? This is my first serious fighting game so blow me up if I'm wrong

 

[The_Tile]

Isn't the Kung Lao example what a stagger is? This is my first serious fighting game so blow me up if I'm wrong

Yeah it is, a stagger can be a frame trap too. If he only had one point to cancel though and it had no recovery the example would still work.

If you can't poke back every time on reaction then why isn't it a frame trap. You're enticing your opponent to press buttons then blowing them up for it, isn't that what a frame trap is? Whether you're -1 or +1 you're still doing the exact same thing.

 

[The_Tile]

Don't get me wrong, most frame traps are plus on block. But that's not the only factor, it doesn't have to be plus on block to be a frame trap.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Surely knowing frame data would prevent all definitions of a frame trap. And it shouldn't exist at the high level for that very reason.

Not exactly. Take Jacqui for example.

1212 is +2 on block (and starts with a high) but frame traps with s4 (an 8 frame mid). After s4 on block, my pressure 'ends' (lets say for the sake of it that it does although there are still options) since I'm no longer plus regardless of what I cancel into. So, if I think you're going to block expecting the s4 frame trap, I can go for another 1212 keeping you blocking and repeat the scenerio. Now as a high, s1 can be beaten out with a low poke, but my s4 should (low profiling bullshit aside) crush any poke attempts. Eventually you're going to have to attempt to poke out otherwise you're just going to be chipped to death but should I read your poke attempt, you get full combo punished. That's the strength of frame traps. They open up other options for your character because you condition your opponent to block since they know it's not their turn yet; and if they continue to not respect your frame trap you can abuse it to land a full combo.

Hell, if my opponent respects my frame traps enough I can start adding in throws and 50/50 attempts. It's not just what the immediate frame trap is, but the options and mindgames it creates.

 

[rubmytaco]

I just want to say frame traps don't actuall have to be plus on block. You can do a -5 move but if the recovery is so small that you can't retaliate on reaction that is also considered a frame trap.

You can learn the frames all you want you still can't beat it out every time because you essentially have to make a read.

I'll use The Wang's example. MK9 Kabal could frame trap from his negative on block D3 because the recovery was so small you couldn't really react to seeing his D3 else you'd be eating his 9f combo starting mid.

He also had lots of other options instead of just doing a D3, he had plenty of options that you also couldn't react to which were actually plus on block so you couldn't poke back, this made you scared to press buttons and limited your reactions even more as you weren't just looking out for the D3 in a vacuum.

After typing this I think I've changed my mind a little, there's so many variables to a frame trap that it's hard to just give it one definition. It's essentially tricking someone into thinking they can press buttons then blowing them up for it but the move doesn't necessarily have to be plus on block.

I'll end with one more example. If Kung Laos 112124 string could be staggered on every single hit and every hit was -1, if you could react to every hit because the recovery was really high you could poke back every time seeing as he only has a 7f poke. If each hit had literally no recovery it wouldn't matter that hes slightly minus because he can still beat you out if you make the wrong read. Because of that example alone, a frame trap does not need to be plus on block, there's more variables to it than that.

You all are making this way too complicated and mixing things up... The very definition of a frame trap is a situation where your opponent's attacks will get beaten by yours because of frame advantage. The idea is that at least one of your options will best all of your opponent's buttons in that situation.

You cannot be minus and have a frame trap unless your move defeats all of the opponent's buttons. Armor is obviously always an option, but that definitely isn't a frame trap, because then any move in the game is potentially a frame trap. Lao's divekick after minus frames isn't a frame trap and neither is scorpion's teleport after minus frames or Kabal's -7 poke. Please stop this madness.

A great example of a frametrap is what St9rm used to do A LOT with Takeda. When he hit the opponent with a grounded teleport, he would wait a couple of frames to make you think you could press a button, but really couldn't. He was using the plus frames on a move to trick you into pressing a button.

 

[xMEECH]

Kabal had a 9f mid combo starter, he could punish ppl trying to poke/combo out of him after a d3, the fastest pokes in MK9 with d3 were all 7f lows, you trying to respond kabal with a jab was just a super high risk since he is canceling NDC which if he did a full commitment there wasn't a gap.

My opinion haven't changed, not all frame traps needs to be plus, and some of them even need to be minus so your opponent gets invited to press buttons, only scrubs press buttons on plus pressure options.

Jin doesn't low poke, he launches ppl because his 1+2 crushes highs despite him being minus, its like a meterless armored launcher, same as his f4 launches on Counter Hit despite being a -5 on block move.

If kabals d3 is -7, how could he get a 9 frame combo starter out before someone's 7 frame low poke? That's not a frametrap. I get the risk of poking on a NDC since if he just let it rip you get full combo'd, but you're actually wrong on your definition of a frametrap.

Oh, Jin has a meterless armored launcher? Hes armoring? It's not a frametrap then. What you are describing is not a frametrap.

If it's not plus on block, it's not a frametrap. Armoring when you're minus, and making your opponents poke whiff and whiff punishing it, neither of these are frametraps.

Actually, if your opponent isn't checking you, that's a good time to poke even if they're plus. You ever see Jason players do f3 into f3? Kotal Kahn do 114 air grab into 114 air grab? Cassie do b123 into b123? Any time they aren't checking you, you can poke them. That's not a scrub tactic that's a read.

Either way, why did you say Kung Lao doesn't have frametraps when he has plenty? Like f43 into d1?

 

[xMEECH]

Don't get me wrong, most frame traps are plus on block. But that's not the only factor, it doesn't have to be plus on block to be a frame trap.

If it's not plus on block it's not a frametrap. It's just an option to beat your opponents buttons when you're minus. Is armoring after something negative a frametrap? No. Is jump back divekick after something minus a frametrap? No.

 

[xMEECH]

Yeah it is, a stagger can be a frame trap too. If he only had one point to cancel though and it had no recovery the example would still work.

If you can't poke back every time on reaction then why isn't it a frame trap. You're enticing your opponent to press buttons then blowing them up for it, isn't that what a frame trap is? Whether you're -1 or +1 you're still doing the exact same thing.

If you can't poke back every time on reaction when something is -1 and you have the same speed pokes, you're bad. Learn the matchup. If it's -1, and you have the same speed low poke, you CAN poke back on reaction, making it not a frametrap. Now, when it comes to Lao's S1/11/11212/112124 stagger pressure, in the heat of a real match it can be hard to react to a stagger and poke out. But that doesn't make 11212 into anything a frametrap since it's -3, minus on block, therefore not a frametrap. He has options to beat some attempted pokes (note: not all) by armoring or instant air divekicking, but those are not frametraps. Just options to beat some (some!) pokes while minus.

 

[xMEECH]

I just want to say frame traps don't actuall have to be plus on block. You can do a -5 move but if the recovery is so small that you can't retaliate on reaction that is also considered a frame trap.

You can learn the frames all you want you still can't beat it out every time because you essentially have to make a read.

I'll use The Wang's example. MK9 Kabal could frame trap from his negative on block D3 because the recovery was so small you couldn't really react to seeing his D3 else you'd be eating his 9f combo starting mid.

He also had lots of other options instead of just doing a D3, he had plenty of options that you also couldn't react to which were actually plus on block so you couldn't poke back, this made you scared to press buttons and limited your reactions even more as you weren't just looking out for the D3 in a vacuum.

After typing this I think I've changed my mind a little, there's so many variables to a frame trap that it's hard to just give it one definition. It's essentially tricking someone into thinking they can press buttons then blowing them up for it but the move doesn't necessarily have to be plus on block.

I'll end with one more example. If Kung Laos 112124 string could be staggered on every single hit and every hit was -1, if you could react to every hit because the recovery was really high you could poke back every time seeing as he only has a 7f poke. If each hit had literally no recovery it wouldn't matter that hes slightly minus because he can still beat you out if you make the wrong read. Because of that example alone, a frame trap does not need to be plus on block, there's more variables to it than that.

Yes, frametraps DO have to be plus on block. The only time something could be neutral or minus and still be a frametrap, is if the agressors fastest poke is signicantly faster than the defenders. Like prepatch jasons d1 into d1 on tremor. Even though jasons d1 is -2 on block, it has a 6 frame startup, creating an 8 frame gap which tremor couldn't do anything about since he only had a 9 frame low poke. It's a minus on block frametrap. Since tremor has an 8 frame low poke now and jasons d1 block adv got changed to -4, it's no longer a frame trap.

If you do a -5 move with hella fast recovery and your opponent can't poke out, your opponent is bad and needs to practice the matchup. If it's -5 by definition your opponent can poke before you can.

Kabal does not have a frametrap when he's -7. He has options to beat your buttons when he's minus, like armoring or flash parrying, but these are not frametraps. Having all the other options aside from the d3 does not make the -7 on block d3 a frametrap.

There are not so many variables to a frametrap. You are attaching many things that are really "options to beat pokes when I'm minus" to the definition of a frametrap, you seem to have forgotten what a frametrap really is. It's a gap between two things on block too small to poke out of, that's it. If you trick someone into thinking they can press buttons and they can't, even though they blocked something minus on block, they're just bad and need to learn the matchup. That doesn't make whatever you did a frametrap.

And no, even if every hit of Lao's 112124 had "no recovery", if they were -1 on block, they would not be frametraps. Actually, they'd be "trade"traps against tremor and dvorah since their 8 frame low pokes would trade with Lao's d1. Anyone who "couldn't" poke out of -1 in the heat of the moment just needs to practice. Because if it's -1, and you have the same speed low poke, you CAN poke out, making it not a frametrap.

 

[xMEECH]

but by that definition you would only be able to fall for a frame trap if you don't know the frames on the move. A frame trap wouldn't exist at a high level

Frame traps still exist at a high level. If something is +2 on block, the fact that it IS a frametrap invites mindgames. Think about this:

If the defender just blocked something + on block and the aggressor is +2, the defender knows that their fastest poke would get beat out by the aggressors fastest poke. They still have some options, like backdash or armor. Let's say the defender didn't know the frames and tried to poke. Boom, the aggressors poke beat their poke. The aggressor did the plus on block string again and is +2 again. The defender knows not to poke, since it'll get beat out, so they block what comes next. It's the plus on block string again, and the aggressor is +2 again. The defender thought, "I couldn't beat their fastest poke, but I can beat the first hit of that string", so they decide to poke. The aggressor tried to do the + string again, and boom the defenders poke won. The defender becomes the aggressor and does a + on block string of their own. Expecting a check, the new defender keeps blocking. The new aggressor made a read that the defender would do this, and grabbed them. After the knockdown the aggressor runs up and does the string again, he's +2. Not wanting to get grabbed again, the defender tries to poke... but it gets beaten by the aggressors check poke.

Now do you see the mindgames and why frametraps are still frametraps at a high level?

 

[masherofbuttons]

Frame traps still exist at a high level. If something is +2 on block, the fact that it IS a frametrap invites mindgames. Think about this:

If the defender just blocked something + on block and the aggressor is +2, the defender knows that their fastest poke would get beat out by the aggressors fastest poke. They still have some options, like backdash or armor. Let's say the defender didn't know the frames and tried to poke. Boom, the aggressors poke beat their poke. The aggressor did the plus on block string again and is +2 again. The defender knows not to poke, since it'll get beat out, so they block what comes next. It's the plus on block string again, and the aggressor is +2 again. The defender thought, "I couldn't beat their fastest poke, but I can beat the first hit of that string", so they decide to poke. The aggressor tried to do the + string again, and boom the defenders poke won. The defender becomes the aggressor and does a + on block string of their own. Expecting a check, the new defender keeps blocking. The new aggressor made a read that the defender would do this, and grabbed them. After the knockdown the aggressor runs up and does the string again, he's +2. Not wanting to get grabbed again, the defender tries to poke... but it gets beaten by the aggressors check poke.

Now do you see the mindgames and why frametraps are still frametraps at a high level?

I know, I was replying to someone who gave a different definition of a frametrap. I told him almost the exact same thing a few posts further down.

 

[xMEECH]

I know, I was replying to someone who gave a different definition of a frametrap. I told him almost the exact same thing a few posts further down.

You're right my bad, I been trying to reply to too many comments in this thread lol

 

[T-box88]

You can think that, but you'd be wrong since by definition frame traps MUST leave a gap to entice your opponent to press buttons. Block strings and frame traps are not the same thing.

Im also agreeing with you though and i quote "or true block strings w/e" there one in the same with with different terms and points of view is all. Its up to personal interpretation

 

[xMEECH]

Im also agreeing with you though and i quote "or true block strings w/e" there one in the same with with different terms and points of view is all. Its up to personal interpretation

Block strings and frame traps are by definition not the same and not up to personal interpretation.

If something has a gap big enough for you to poke (not punish your opponent, but your fastest poke would beat their fastest poke), it's not a frame trap. To counter what eddy wang said, if your opponent has a way to make one of your moves whiff and whiff punish them, that does not make something a frame trap, especially when the defender has a option to hit you out of your attempted whiff punish.

If something has a gap but your fastest button cannot beat your opponents fastest button, it's a frame trap. You can only escape a frame trap by using invincibility frames or armor, or by blocking. Frame traps by definition do need to have a gap, but only to allow invincibility frames or armor, not normal moves. In the gap of a frame trap, you don't have enough frame advantage for any of your unarmored or non-invincible moves to startup.

If something has no gap for you to even use invincibility frames or armor, it's a blockstring/"true blockstring". The only options are block correctly or get hit by what comes next.

These are not up to personal interpretation and are not even new terms in the FGC.