Does Joker have gaps in his pressure/strings?

[Vengeance135]

LOL

This also happens to me on batmans slide lol which is dumb because in injustice 1 you could punish slide with 32

 

[Tweedy]

I can't speak on MKX because I never played it but on a perspective of this game, knowing where the gaps and hitbox inconsistencies are in this game can determine a win or loss if you know what options your characters have in that situation. In jokers case, some characters can parry, poke, neutral jump, backdash, armor out or even super. Anyone, if not all of these options can be used in all of jokers strings. That really shouldn't be the case. Also, his mid strings shouldn't whiff on a whiff punish. I attached an example below:

Yeah Beetle's recovery frames on that move have ridiculous low profiling.

 

[Vengeance135]

Yeah Beetle's recovery frames on that move have ridiculous low profiling.

This inconsistency is with a lot of characters within the roster though, not just on beetle. Its super frustrating when your going for a whiff punish and your punish goes through the character lol

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

This inconsistency is with a lot of characters within the roster though, not just on beetle. Its super frustrating when your going for a whiff punish and your punish goes through the character lol

Or when 21 whiffs on a crouch green arrow

 

[Vengeance135]

Or when 21 whiffs on a crouch green arrow

Or when you whiff a j2 cross up when your foot is clearly going through their head

 

[The PantyChrist]

Even at the highest level gaps barely mean anything in comparison to MKX, unless that gap has a 6 frame or larger window. Against a lot of the cast it has to be larger than that.

If this were MKX Green Lantern wouldn't even be able to function, but since the timing is so strict and varying on mb b3ing, and backdashing doesn't always get you anywhere, you see Green Lantern's gap heavy strings used all the way to top 8 at EVO.

Lanterns strings are much better due to either advancing or speed. I'm assuming you're talking about b13 and b12. Joker doesn't have anything with b1 range and none of his strings advance until the 2nd hit. If he wants to hit people from that range he has to d2 and then his offense becomes inconsistent

 

[Vengeance135]

Lanterns strings are much better due to either advancing or speed. I'm assuming you're talking about b13 and b12. Joker doesn't have anything with b1 range and none of his strings advance until the 2nd hit. If he wants to hit people from that range he has to d2 and then his offense becomes inconsistent

You ever go for d2 crowbar then get parried lol

 

[The PantyChrist]

I didn't play him long enough.

 

[Vengeance135]

I didn't play him long enough.

It's salt inducing lol

 

[Tweedy]

Lanterns strings are much better due to either advancing or speed. I'm assuming you're talking about b13 and b12. Joker doesn't have anything with b1 range and none of his strings advance until the 2nd hit. If he wants to hit people from that range he has to d2 and then his offense becomes inconsistent

I haven't even mentioned Joker once in this thread i'm just talking about gaps and their relevance. I've played like 4 matches vs Joker since release.

 

[Vengeance135]

I haven't even mentioned Joker once in this thread i'm just talking about gaps and their relevance. I've played like 4 matches vs Joker since release.

Yeah you haven't. But gaps in this game should be exposed if they can be on all characters. As a joker player, you have to take an opening where you can get it lol. As I mentioned, I never played MKX so that's a whole different kind of beast lol but if characters gaps or hitbox inconsistencies can be exposed in this game, why not capitalize right?

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I haven't even mentioned Joker once in this thread i'm just talking about gaps and their relevance. I've played like 4 matches vs Joker since release.

I think the bigger picture (and more relevant one) is how there are pretty big gaps between almost all of Jokers strings and specials

Edit: And how easily people could really be exposing these gaps but aren't

 

[DeftMonk]

ya lots of people respect string into can or string into teeth when its easily punishable. Sometimes I run into a superman (which is a bad enough matchup as it is) or fate (same) and they just blow me up in these gaps. Although honestly, I think they were just spamming f23 or fates f2 db2(I think thats input?) and didnt actually know the matchup.

As the video showed the only really safe gapless string we have is 33 and 1. it whiffs frequently 2. it has no overhead no low is 16 frames and doesnt advance. Not exactly the greatest tool. I mean for real this isnt even the worst part of playing the joker its just a point I wanted to make. I think its just rough because he struggles to get a touch outside of setups on someone that doesnt know the mu and when he does it confirm for much outside of j2 which is most useful as a neutral jump. He kinda can zone but a true zoner will shut him down (this is when he really suffers because without any zoning at all using only his normals its a tough gig).

 

[The PantyChrist]

I haven't even mentioned Joker once in this thread i'm just talking about gaps and their relevance. I've played like 4 matches vs Joker since release.

I know I'm just pointing out that his Swiss cheese offense doesn't have the same range/ utility to warrant that kind of holiness. He has to rely on a nerfed j2 to get in there

 

[Vengeance135]

I know I'm just pointing out that his Swiss cheese offense doesn't have the same range/ utility to warrant that kind of holiness. He has to rely on a nerfed j2 to get in there

Lol swiss cheese.

 

[TarkatanDentist]

I'm telling you, they hate joker at NRS lol it's not like the buffs we wanted would make him overpowered. They really just hate him to keep him low tier for 4 years

I think it's far more likely that they simply forgot they added him to this game.

 

[Vengeance135]

I think it's far more likely that they simply forgot they added him to this game.

Lol with the way he is, they shouldn't have bothered adding him. He's booty

 

[EntropicByDesign]

I might be wrong here but I don't think Tweedy is arguing that Joker is good or that he doesn't have problems, or even that his gaps aren't dangerous and problematic.

I think he's just making a general statement that a string having a gap doesn't automatically make it, or the character shitty unless that gap is large enough to consistently exploit in some way. Which to my understanding most of Joker's are consistently exploitable. So his general point isn't against joker needing Jesus with a backpack full of frame data, so much as just ssying, in general , gaps ain't always a big deal.

 

[buyacushun]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but maybe he's designed that way because of the parry he has? I've faced maybe one random joker since i got the a few weeks ago. Didn't know about the gaps or just D1 during most specials.

 

[Swindle]

No we are talking about joker specifically in both injustice 1 and 2. If people actually learned the MU, they would beat him easily. Instead, they get freed up by gimmicks then say "wow jokers fine" and the character suffers again. In summary, our point is the community is lazy. I can't speak on MKX because I never played it.

Whoa, nelly! Who the fuck let you in here? We don't serve your kind.

 

[The PantyChrist]

I'm not arguing with anyone I'm just saying I feel a character who already struggles to start offense shouldn't struggle so much to maintain it.

 

[Vengeance135]

Whoa, nelly! Who the fuck let you in here? We don't serve your kind.

Sorry lol not a fan of mortal kombat fighters lol I like the stories, that's about it

 

[Gilbagz]

Finally chiming in

I actually dont mind the string gaps anymore, having a small gap lets us beat mashers cos it'll let the reversal normal come out and we can frame trap. Seems like an intentional design choice.

What I do mind is all his bloody mids whiffing against moves that ever so slightly low profile. Beetle shield, batman slide, catwoman b3. His 2 series which is by far his best set of mid normals gets low profiled by launching moves and fails to punish them on block and whiff. Flash can mash d2 out of pressure if we leave any gap into 2 to frame rap purely cos of how low his hurtbox is. And even if we block it, at -13 we cant get a significant punish cos his hurtbox is still underground. f2 and s3 are too slow, and s2 whiffs completely. We're relegated to b1 which only links into gunshot in which we get less damage as well. This is after blocking a low profiling launcher.... Likewise catwoman b3. Have had other issues as well with his s2 whiffing against scarecrow, and some of the females while they just crouch.

And j2 having a tiny af hitbox so people can just crouch to make it whiff (which people still dont do). Literally one step back from point blank, and j2 whiffs on people crouching bar the bigs.
Mb gun fix would be nice because real talk the risk reward on trying a d1 mb gun shot punish just isnt worth it

Couple that with delay wake up messing with his set play game, he's lacking a tonne right now. I can deal with no wake up, i can deal with weaker set play, I can deal with a border line useless trait. But I can't deal with his normals just not working. He hits fairly hard, and gets guaranteed meaty pressure with teeth and corner shenanigans, but in game with much stronger pressure, neutral and set play characters, he's lacking so much.

Long story short, fix his mids and j2 please. His game is meant to be read for read pressure with a good jump game; and potential hard to blockables after conditioning. But sometimes you cant even play read for read.

Kinda wish his throw left him more plus to so we could get a better meaty. Right now its literally just a meaty d2 or d3. Also 2,1,(1 - the upswing part) has like no hitbox, crap whiffs so much. Maybe its cos the active frames are shorter or something, but that is horrible for catching float combos...

 

[DeftMonk]

Finally chiming in

I actually dont mind the string gaps anymore, having a small gap lets us beat mashers cos it'll let the reversal normal come out and we can frame trap. Seems like an intentional design choice.

What I do mind is all his bloody mids whiffing against moves that ever so slightly low profile. Beetle shield, batman slide, catwoman b3. His 2 series which is by far his best set of mid normals gets low profiled by launching moves and fails to punish them on block and whiff. Flash can mash d2 out of pressure if we leave any gap into 2 to frame rap purely cos of how low his hurtbox is. And even if we block it, at -13 we cant get a significant punish cos his hurtbox is still underground. f2 and s3 are too slow, and s2 whiffs completely. We're relegated to b1 which only links into gunshot in which we get less damage as well. This is after blocking a low profiling launcher.... Likewise catwoman b3. Have had other issues as well with his s2 whiffing against scarecrow, and some of the females while they just crouch.

And j2 having a tiny af hitbox so people can just crouch to make it whiff (which people still dont do). Literally one step back from point blank, and j2 whiffs on people crouching bar the bigs.
Mb gun fix would be nice because real talk the risk reward on trying a d1 mb gun shot punish just isnt worth it

Couple that with delay wake up messing with his set play game, he's lacking a tonne right now. I can deal with no wake up, i can deal with weaker set play, I can deal with a border line useless trait. But I can't deal with his normals just not working. He hits fairly hard, and gets guaranteed meaty pressure with teeth and corner shenanigans, but in game with much stronger pressure, neutral and set play characters, he's lacking so much.

Long story short, fix his mids and j2 please. His game is meant to be read for read pressure with a good jump game; and potential hard to blockables after conditioning. But sometimes you cant even play read for read.

Kinda wish his throw left him more plus to so we could get a better meaty. Right now its literally just a meaty d2 or d3. Also 2,1,(1 - the upswing part) has like no hitbox, crap whiffs so much. Maybe its cos the active frames are shorter or something, but that is horrible for catching float combos...

I agree with all of this 100% also since we don't have any advancing strings coupled with d1 issue you mentioned, our whiff punish and punishing moves that are only slightly unsafe capability sucks.

 

[Vengeance135]

Finally chiming in

I actually dont mind the string gaps anymore, having a small gap lets us beat mashers cos it'll let the reversal normal come out and we can frame trap. Seems like an intentional design choice.

What I do mind is all his bloody mids whiffing against moves that ever so slightly low profile. Beetle shield, batman slide, catwoman b3. His 2 series which is by far his best set of mid normals gets low profiled by launching moves and fails to punish them on block and whiff. Flash can mash d2 out of pressure if we leave any gap into 2 to frame rap purely cos of how low his hurtbox is. And even if we block it, at -13 we cant get a significant punish cos his hurtbox is still underground. f2 and s3 are too slow, and s2 whiffs completely. We're relegated to b1 which only links into gunshot in which we get less damage as well. This is after blocking a low profiling launcher.... Likewise catwoman b3. Have had other issues as well with his s2 whiffing against scarecrow, and some of the females while they just crouch.

And j2 having a tiny af hitbox so people can just crouch to make it whiff (which people still dont do). Literally one step back from point blank, and j2 whiffs on people crouching bar the bigs.
Mb gun fix would be nice because real talk the risk reward on trying a d1 mb gun shot punish just isnt worth it

Couple that with delay wake up messing with his set play game, he's lacking a tonne right now. I can deal with no wake up, i can deal with weaker set play, I can deal with a border line useless trait. But I can't deal with his normals just not working. He hits fairly hard, and gets guaranteed meaty pressure with teeth and corner shenanigans, but in game with much stronger pressure, neutral and set play characters, he's lacking so much.

Long story short, fix his mids and j2 please. His game is meant to be read for read pressure with a good jump game; and potential hard to blockables after conditioning. But sometimes you cant even play read for read.

Kinda wish his throw left him more plus to so we could get a better meaty. Right now its literally just a meaty d2 or d3. Also 2,1,(1 - the upswing part) has like no hitbox, crap whiffs so much. Maybe its cos the active frames are shorter or something, but that is horrible for catching float combos...

I agree with what you said. The only thing that really gets me is the fact he has no wake up though. Once joker is knocked down, it is pretty much a gg even of your block game is on point, eventually he will get opened up. At this point everything about him is inconsistent and in certain MU's he can't even compete. @JustPressingButtons and I were playing a set his superman vs my joker and I couldn't even apply pressure. Superman punished everything. There's a lot of characters that can easily take advantage of jokers offense and defense. He just sorely lacks everything lol