Does Joker have gaps in his pressure/strings?

[Vengeance135]

Supergirl didn't get her any of her gaps fixed. She just got safety on a nonlaunching gapless option she already had.

The gaps are still there.

Interesting, I thought I heard them say they fixed a whiffing issue of hers on stream. Maybe not? When I said whiffing issues I meant general whiffing issues. Things whiffing create the gaps. Things that shouldn't but do. Like just about all of jokers mids whiff on more then half the roster and they shouldn't. What would be the purpose of the mid if it doesn't actually hit mid. Also characters that needed buffs got them minus joker, but that's a topic for another time lol

Sorry on the supergirl, I could have sworn I heard them say they fixed a whiffing issue of hers lol

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Interesting, I thought I heard them say they fixed a whiffing issue of hers on stream. Maybe not? When I said whiffing issues I meant general whiffing issues. Things whiffing create the gaps. Things that shouldn't but do. Like just about all of jokers mids whiff on more then half the roster and they shouldn't. What would be the purpose of the mid if it doesn't actually hit mid. Also characters that needed buffs got them minus joker, but that's a topic for another time lol

Sorry on the supergirl, I could have sworn I heard them say they fixed a whiffing issue of hers lol

Gaps don't whiff -- gaps are where a move would connect, but you have franes to unblock and do something to interrupt before it does.

Whiffing is a hitbox issue, gaps are a frame data issue.

 

[Vengeance135]

Gaps don't whiff -- gaps are where a move would connect, but you have franes to unblock and do something to interrupt before it does.

Whiffing is a hitbox issue, gaps are a frame data issue.

Like I said, where I'm going with this is Frame data issues are causing gaps in strings that are making certain part of the string whiff that shouldn't be there. Therefore moves are whiffing when they shouldn't be like mids, etc. Sorry for any miscommunication.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Like I said, where I'm going with this is Frame data issues are causing gaps in strings that are making certain part of the string whiff that shouldn't be there. Therefore moves are whiffing when they shouldn't be like mids, etc. Sorry for any miscommunication.

Yeah -- I was just trying to clear up that something like a mid whiffing on a crouching character is a hitbox issue, not a frame data/gap issue.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Because almost everyone has gaps in their pressure strings.

 

[Vengeance135]

Yeah -- I was just trying to clear up that something like a mid whiffing on a crouching character is a hitbox issue, not a frame data/gap issue.

Hey sorry for the confusion. Like I said, the whiffing of certain parts of the string are causing gaps that shouldn't be there. I didn't mean to confuse any one lol but yeah you are right for sure. The whiffing is a hitbox issue. I'm sometimes not good at explaining things lol what I'm thinking and how I say it sometimes aren't the same lol

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Hey sorry for the confusion. Like I said, the whiffing of certain parts of the string are causing gaps that shouldn't be there. I didn't mean to confuse any one lol but yeah you are right for sure. The whiffing is a hitbox issue. I'm sometimes not good at explaining things lol what I'm thinking and how I say it sometimes aren't the same lol

It's all good. I'm wishing you guys luck with that Joker struggle -- it's been a long time, haha.

 

[Vengeance135]

It's all good. I'm wishing you guys luck with that Joker struggle -- it's been a long time, haha.

It's been pretty unsuccessful so far and with a lot of the players leaving the community, getting the support needed is going to be a bit harder. As much as I want to say I'm done, joker is still my favorite character. How often can you use your favorite character in a fighting game no less lol

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Id bet that if we had access to Inj stats like number of games played, number of times each character has been played along with win/loss % etc, we'd see Joker extremely low in terms of times chosen, but massively high in terms of win %. Data and stat gathering probably informs balance decisions more than *almost* anything else and Joker's data probably paints a very incorrect picture of the character for a handful of reasons.

Its like the Fang data in SFV.. there were some stats released a while ago that had him dead last in pick % but I believe number 1 in win %. Since he was widely considered the worst character in the game, the stats dont show that. The reason of course is multifold but comes down mostly to Fang mains typically being the kind of people who play him from love/interest not easy wins or tier list picks, so they really KNOW the character and how to play him. They live and breath him. He's also a tech and setup heavy character that you absolutely CAN beat, you just have to know HOW to beat.. His tiny pick % means most people have no idea how to fight him.. so the stats get skewed and it all gets fucked from there.

 

[Vengeance135]

Id bet that if we had access to Inj stats like number of games played, number of times each character has been played along with win/loss % etc, we'd see Joker extremely low in terms of times chosen, but massively high in terms of win %. Data and stat gathering probably informs balance decisions more than *almost* anything else and Joker's data probably paints a very incorrect picture of the character for a handful of reasons.

Its like the Fang data in SFV.. there were some stats released a while ago that had him dead last in pick % but I believe number 1 in win %. Since he was widely considered the worst character in the game, the stats dont show that. The reason of course is multifold but comes down mostly to Fang mains typically being the kind of people who play him from love/interest not easy wins or tier list picks, so they really KNOW the character and how to play him. They live and breath him. He's also a tech and setup heavy character that you absolutely CAN beat, you just have to know HOW to beat.. His tiny pick % means most people have no idea how to fight him.. so the stats get skewed and it all gets fucked from there.

Bruh this is perfect. Almost word for word, this describes 80% of the joker community. We all put so much time and effort into everything that has to do with this character, MU and tech, and it's extremely frustrating when someone tells us we just need to level up lol

 

[DeftMonk]

What should I be doing as my main Green Lantern? 113, 21, 212 and F21crowbar blow up his backdash on reversal; 112, 11crowbar, F212crowbar blow up his super. 21crowbar blows up both his super and his backdash. Couldn't really punish any of it consistenly.

After labbing it out. The 21 crowbar is the only thing I couldn't blow up with gl super but all in all I feel this matchup shouldn't rely on this sort of things as you can low profile all these strings with b1. If joker gets in on you I would reccomend blocking his strings then when he commits to a special respond this way:
Teeth : (after every string but 212 you will punish. After 212 he loses his turn tho) easily punishable by going into b13.

Id bet that if we had access to Inj stats like number of games played, number of times each character has been played along with win/loss % etc, we'd see Joker extremely low in terms of times chosen, but massively high in terms of win %. Data and stat gathering probably informs balance decisions more than *almost* anything else and Joker's data probably paints a very incorrect picture of the character for a handful of reasons.

Its like the Fang data in SFV.. there were some stats released a while ago that had him dead last in pick % but I believe number 1 in win %. Since he was widely considered the worst character in the game, the stats dont show that. The reason of course is multifold but comes down mostly to Fang mains typically being the kind of people who play him from love/interest not easy wins or tier list picks, so they really KNOW the character and how to play him. They live and breath him. He's also a tech and setup heavy character that you absolutely CAN beat, you just have to know HOW to beat.. His tiny pick % means most people have no idea how to fight him.. so the stats get skewed and it all gets fucked from there.

Ya I'd also like to see how many times in the course of a joker match his trait actually gets used. Those frames require you to sacrifice position pressure or damage and it's pretty much never worth it.

 

[Vengeance135]

After labbing it out. The 21 crowbar is the only thing I couldn't blow up with gl super but all in all I feel this matchup shouldn't rely on this sort of things as you can low profile all these strings with b1. If joker gets in on you I would reccomend blocking his strings then when he commits to a special respond this way:
Teeth : (after every string but 212 you will punish. After 212 he loses) easily punishable by going into b13.

Ya I'd also like to see how many times in the course of a joker match his trait actually gets used. Those frames require you to sacrifice position pressure or damage and it's pretty much never worth it.

I sometimes forget joker has trait lol I don't even care about a trait change anymore. I just want changes and fixes to his move set at this point

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Bruh this is perfect. Almost word for word, this describes 80% of the joker community. We all put so much time and effort into everything that has to do with this character, MU and tech, and it's extremely frustrating when someone tells us we just need to level up lol

Yeah, I honestly dont get the whole "hurr hurr lv up i saw a single set where joker pwned so hes fine".

Shrug. I know that other characters have gaps too and there are mindgames around the gaps in some cases, but I just dont think that many characters have gaps and problems and mindgames with almost every single string they have. Additionally a lot of the strings that have these issues are very very strong strings that need something to scale them back a little bit. Joker seems to have some 'ok' strings, but (its been a while admittedly) I cant think of any like crazy powerful ones that you'd normally associate with needing to have some kind of power check built in.

And even if gaps arent as big a deal in this game as they were/are in other games, they are still an issue and when essentially every single thing you have has this issue, it becomes.. well, an issue.

Throw in what is almost certainly the worst trait in the game after the patch (and in the running now) and.. well..

Im a shit player and I dont go to tournaments and other people know and understand the game far better than I do, but Im not stupid and I understand Inj and fighting games in general well enough to be able to look at something and apply objective reasoning and logic to draw proper conclusions.. and Joker.. Joker is bad.

 

[Vengeance135]

Yeah, I honestly dont get the whole "hurr hurr lv up i saw a single set where joker pwned so hes fine".

Shrug. I know that other characters have gaps too and there are mindgames around the gaps in some cases, but I just dont think that many characters have gaps and problems and mindgames with almost every single string they have. Additionally a lot of the strings that have these issues are very very strong strings that need something to scale them back a little bit. Joker seems to have some 'ok' strings, but (its been a while admittedly) I cant think of any like crazy powerful ones that you'd normally associate with needing to have some kind of power check built in.

And even if gaps arent as big a deal in this game as they were/are in other games, they are still an issue and when essentially every single thing you have has this issue, it becomes.. well, an issue.

Throw in what is almost certainly the worst trait in the game after the patch (and in the running now) and.. well..

Im a shit player and I dont go to tournaments and other people know and understand the game far better than I do, but Im not stupid and I understand Inj and fighting games in general well enough to be able to look at something and apply objective reasoning and logic to draw proper conclusions.. and Joker.. Joker is bad.

I wish more people saw that lol they just like to ride the hype train and just see a character win and judge it off that one time instead of analyzing and understanding the character like they should lol something that has always frustrated me is if you don't know the character or the MU, don't comment on him. I always comment stuff from a jokers perspective in the MU. Outside of that, you will see me say stuff like "idk enough to comment," or "no clue" lol

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

Thanks for the info. Anything else you guys would like to add to the Lantern/Joker MU?

 

[Savage8-8]

at this point....i would love to just have a low parry. Not sure what the intent was behind not having the low parry option.

 

[Vengeance135]

at this point....i would love to just have a low parry. Not sure what the intent was behind not having the low parry option.

For us to struggle more lol

 

[Vengeance135]

Thanks for the info. Anything else you guys would like to add to the Lantern/Joker MU?

If joker has a health advantage, don't let him go full screen. At full screen joker can outzone lantern. Jokers gun can shoot and recover to block (depending in the timing) faster then lanterns meterless projectiles. Only that mb lantern crap can compete at that range.

Your best options are to keep joker midrange or closer. Lantern absolutely beats joker at these ranges due to lanterns stronger neutral.

Lanterns d2 and j1 are excellent ways of keeping joker out the sky.

Also keep the pressure on once you knock joker down. Due to the lack of any actual viable wake up, joker gets bullied ridiculously once he's knocked down.

Learn how to block jokers setups in the corner or delayed wakeup And pushblock the second he touches you. It will put joker back in neutral state where lantern wins.

Of course, once the joker player sees you know the setups, he will start taking crazy risks and/or start using mb f3 in the corner to try to keep you there.

Once you learn the setups and add delayed wake up and pushblock to your game vs joker, his corner game isn't nearly as viable.

 

[Kanalratte]

at this point....i would love to just have a low parry. Not sure what the intent was behind not having the low parry option.

in order to sell red hood they give him all the better tools (zoning, air control, faster traps, awesome wake up, low / high parry)

 

[Vengeance135]

in order to sell red hood they give him all the better tools (zoning, air control, faster traps, awesome wake up, low / high parry)

I'm telling you, they hate joker at NRS lol it's not like the buffs we wanted would make him overpowered. They really just hate him to keep him low tier for 4 years

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

Only string you can really use is 21 and 212 (although there is that gap between the 2 and 1). At least cancelling from the string is actually safe.

32 low canister - can literally just neutral jump full combo or d1 poke out
32 crowbar - d1 poke out
32 teeth - full combo (if you have an advancing string like F23 from superman which gets you out of teeth)

And I'm pretty sure the same goes for the 11 string.

Let's not forget that a 29 frame low canister and a 20 frame overhead crowbar is completely reactable..... so it's not like you're gonna be doing bad if you simply block considering we're -9 after crowbar and have nothing guaranteed off a mb low canister (if blocked of course).

 

[Vengeance135]

Only string you can really use is 21 and 212 (although there is that gap between the 2 and 1). At least cancelling from the string is actually safe.

32 low canister - can literally just neutral jump full combo or d1 poke out
32 crowbar - d1 poke out
32 teeth - full combo (if you have an advancing string like F23 from superman which gets you out of teeth)

And I'm pretty sure the same goes for the 11 string.

Let's not forget that a 29 frame low canister and a 20 frame overhead crowbar is completely reactable..... so it's not like you're gonna be doing bad if you simply block considering we're -9 after crowbar and have nothing guaranteed off a mb low canister (if blocked of course).

I'm pretty sure you can jump out of 21 can though... let me double check that but I'm almost 100% positive

 

[Tweedy]

From what I've noticed, for the most part gaps only consistently get blown up at the highest (I rarely do it as I only know the well known ones). Let's say 90% (just a number, lets not debate how many people are at a high level) of people don't play at a skill level where they can consistently blow up gaps. How does NRS treat this when deciding who to buff or nerf? Do they say, we'll Joker is good and fun and successful for that 90% so he's fine, or do they say nobody in that 10% (highest level) play him, so we should buff him? Does NRS ever release any insight into this?

Even at the highest level gaps barely mean anything in comparison to MKX, unless that gap has a 6 frame or larger window. Against a lot of the cast it has to be larger than that.

If this were MKX Green Lantern wouldn't even be able to function, but since the timing is so strict and varying on mb b3ing, and backdashing doesn't always get you anywhere, you see Green Lantern's gap heavy strings used all the way to top 8 at EVO.

 

[Vengeance135]

Even at the highest level gaps barely mean anything in comparison to MKX, unless that gap has a 6 frame or larger window. Against a lot of the cast it has to be larger than that.

If this were MKX Green Lantern wouldn't even be able to function, but since the timing is so strict and varying on mb b3ing, and backdashing doesn't always get you anywhere, you see Green Lantern's gap heavy strings used all the way to top 8 at EVO.

I can't speak on MKX because I never played it but on a perspective of this game, knowing where the gaps and hitbox inconsistencies are in this game can determine a win or loss if you know what options your characters have in that situation. In jokers case, some characters can parry, poke, neutral jump, backdash, armor out or even super. Anyone, if not all of these options can be used in all of jokers strings. That really shouldn't be the case. Also, his mid strings shouldn't whiff on a whiff punish. I attached an example below:

 

[BrianTheBEAST]

I can't speak on MKX because I never played it but on a perspective of this game, knowing where the gaps and hitbox inconsistencies are in this game can determine a win or loss if you know what options your characters have in that situation. In jokers case, some characters can parry, poke, neutral jump, backdash, armor out or even super. Anyone, if not all of these options can be used in all of jokers strings. That really shouldn't be the case. Also, his mid strings shouldn't whiff on a whiff punish. I attached an example below:

LOL