Does Flawless Block ruin neutral?

[DeftMonk]

Run cancel was just their attempt at necroing an old mechanic that didn't need to come back in favor of always trying to outdo themselves. They literally just turned off dash canceling and replaced it with run cancel between MK9-X.

I always found it so annoying that you can physically dash the required distance for a combo in that game but just can't continue because they want you using their shitty run mechanic instead. Same-ish input, more convoluted result.

Oh look we're back to dash cancels that's weird.

Ya but I honestly don't like the fact the stance/move cancels in mk11 are random inputs and cancel into just standing still. Especially on shang who can combo with his cancel. Would feel so much more natural for me if it the cancel was into a dash instead of just standing there for some reason. I think its because so many fighting games have dash cancel stuff.

 

[Trustful_Whale]

Ya but I honestly don't like the fact the stance/move cancels in mk11 are random inputs and cancel into just standing still. Especially on shang who can combo with his cancel. Would feel so much more natural for me if it the cancel was into a dash instead of just standing there for some reason. I think its because so many fighting games have dash cancel stuff.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Just about any cancel I can think of across most fighting games results in the character resetting to neutral. I'd say the moving cancels are the uncommon ones typically.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

The mechanic is good it's just that certain strings are pretty much useless against someone who's good at it

That's not true. Ever since they tightened up the timing on flawless blocks you can use those strings as round enders because you cannot release and block on the last couple frames anymore to get a flawless block you have to release block pretty much right after the second to last hit, thus you get hit by cancelled specials if you go for the fb.

So against Shang Tsung for example you have hard decision to make in low hp situations, where you either give him plus frames from f242 or try to fb it and possibly get clipped by a special cancel or eat the foot of f243.

Most of these "useless" strings work that way it's just that Shang Tsung and Kitana for example get more out of it than say Jade, because those two have safe enders that aren't specials attached to those strings.

 

[DixieFlatline78]

That's not true. Ever since they tightened up the timing on flawless blocks you can use those strings as round enders because you cannot release and block on the last couple frames anymore to get a flawless block you have to release block pretty much right after the second to last hit, thus you get hit by cancelled specials if you go for the fb.

So against Shang Tsung for example you have hard decision to make in low hp situations, where you either give him plus frames from f242 or try to fb it and possibly get clipped by a special cancel or eat the foot of f243.

Most of these "useless" strings work that way it's just that Shang Tsung and Kitana for example get more out of it than say Jade, because those two have safe enders that aren't specials attached to those strings.

Certain, very specific strings. Kotal F34, Shao Kahn F341+2, etc. Useless is definitely not the right word, but they do become extremely risky to use.

 

[DeftMonk]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Just about any cancel I can think of across most fighting games results in the character resetting to neutral. I'd say the moving cancels are the uncommon ones typically.

Well it's not so much the movement maybe? but mkx mk9 sf4 etc all have movement cancels. What makes it weird is after the cancel you dont get any kind of buffer and you have to wait for the recovery of the cancel animation to input something. It just feels super clunky imo. Doing shang's v3 cancel combos just feel less fun than run cancel combos/gg combos with that cancel mechanic/sf4 fadc cancel combos for this reason imo. Also I don't like so much how one character will have bb as cancel input another d another d+block or something just why?

 

[Radien-shen]

There are a few things in Mk 11 that detract from it's focus on slower, neutral-based combat, like the Fatal Blow mechanic, chip-kill from normals/DOT, projectiles that don't collide, ect.

Then there's Flawless Block. A mechanic that just invalidates a ton of strings from just existing. The system could work in a game where combos are more freeform, but one with predetermined strings?

What would MK 11 be like without Flawless Block?

nope nothing wrong with flawless block. It adds depth to the game and rewards the player who has studied the match up

 

[Juggs]

Seems like people seem to be confused on what 'neutral' is.. Flawless block barely affects Neutral. Neutral is the mind game you play with your opponent when you're in footsie distance or just outside of it. Once someone actually lands a hit (either blocked or otherwise) that game is over until someone/something resets the neutral.

Flawless block deals with what happens defensively immediately following the neutral game, but it's not the neutral tool. The neutral game is still what it is. It simply gives you more options for what to do just after you block something. You still have to play neutral.

So the answer is no.

And to people complaining about getting a turn back, you do that at the risk of your opponent baiting it, and at the cost of your resources. It's another mind game, which are things that help add depth to fighting games.

This isn’t necessarily true, or at least, there’s more to it than that. Neutral is when neither player has any real positional advantage in that current moment in time, as well as no frame advantage or really any advantage. Hence the name “neutral”. So essentially, it’s a state of the game where you’re fighting for advantage.

To put it in another way, neutral is when both players are fighting for space on the screen in order to gain an advantage. That advantage can be anything, but usually you’re fighting for positional advantage that puts you into a range where your character best thrives. For a lot characters that’s in footsie range, or just outside of it (as you said). Other characters it’s trying to get all the way in and apply your pressure. etc etc

 

[Shale101]

I think flawless block is an extremely difficult mechanic in this game......maybe it was aimed for high level players only but for casuals I would assume its not used at all. I had no problem with the run cancel in MKX and I felt like I was good at the game....not amazing but solidly good. This game has no long combos to learn and I would argue more guess work with all the wake up options and these stagger and throw games. Even though I have studied the game and my main and have practiced for a year I dont feel much better then the first month of practice honestly. The flawless block is just way to hard for me to even attempt to do consistently so I don't even try to. Even if I do get one on accident there is not enough time for me to react and up 2.

 

[DeftMonk]

I think flawless block is an extremely difficult mechanic in this game......maybe it was aimed for high level players only but for casuals I would assume its not used at all. I had no problem with the run cancel in MKX and I felt like I was good at the game....not amazing but solidly good. This game has no long combos to learn and I would argue more guess work with all the wake up options and these stagger and throw games. Even though I have studied the game and my main and have practiced for a year I dont feel much better then the first month of practice honestly. The flawless block is just way to hard for me to even attempt to do consistently so I don't even try to. Even if I do get one on accident there is not enough time for me to react and up 2.

Bro just spend like 10 minutes before u play anyone doing this: set ai to (block random combo) reversal set to somethin like cages kick or jacqui’s dash punch. Then do a string like 11 with Shang (dunno who you play), and if it lands hit confirm to 114 soul steal if it doesn’t get ready to fb the reversal. If you practice this for a few days fb will become pretty easy in every practical situation.

I like the fb mechanic I just think u2/u3 should just cost half of what it does. Some of the characters I play are so meter hungry, in most situations I could care less about flawless block attacks.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

With Scorpion I prefer doing u3 over u2, because the damage I get from 1 bar of meter is so shit, I rather have the plus frames for a throw/strike mixup.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

This isn’t necessarily true, or at least, there’s more to it than that. Neutral is when neither player has any real positional advantage in that current moment in time, as well as no frame advantage or really any advantage. Hence the name “neutral”. So essentially, it’s a state of the game where you’re fighting for advantage.

To put it in another way, neutral is when both players are fighting for space on the screen in order to gain an advantage. That advantage can be anything, but usually you’re fighting for positional advantage that puts you into a range where your character best thrives. For a lot characters that’s in footsie range, or just outside of it (as you said). Other characters it’s trying to get all the way in and apply your pressure. etc etc

This doesn't contradict what I said, though. Once you're already all the way in and somebody is being hit or blocking something at point blank, the neutral game is over until it resets.

 

[AREZ God of War]

It's not that I didn't like them so much as I was terrible at them, so there were whole variations that I couldn't ever use to their full potential. My first devoted main was Aftershock Tremor, but as the meta went on, Crystalline and the run cancel flash parries became the end all be all of his playstyle, and I just couldn't get comfortable with it. And the Run Button itself...it was weird, but not terrible, but not something I'll miss if it never comes back. I tried to play every damn body in that game but mained Killer Leatherface almost exclusively after MKXL came out, so I had a LOT of shenanigans I could get off canceling regular moves out of the Run just getting people to jump thinking they were about to get the unblockable. If he didn't have so many pain in the ass matchups, I'd probably go back and try to pick it up again.

Did you get to learn UMK3 with Run as a LT? That's how it's "supposed" to work :trollface:

 

[LaidbackOne]

Its a great mechanic but you shouldn't be able to use it during hit stun.

 

[DarkSado]

I think it's silly that you can steal your turn when you're minus. It's an advanced tactic and it's impressive when people use it though. I generally don't like it and don't want it back.

yea that's my gripe as well when you minus you can steal your turn back with launcher LMAO! Which is funny people hate armor launcher because it steal turn.

 

[Gooberking]

yea that's my gripe as well when you minus you can steal your turn back with launcher LMAO! Which is funny people hate armor launcher because it steal turn.

You can also low poke to steal your turn back when negative. Try to Nj out of plus frames and land a full damage jump combo for no resources. Back dash away to punish you for taking your turn; likely with a full combo. Could Also stop mid string, be -7 and flat out take another turn betting you won't notice yours passed you by. Could cancel into special to manipulate where a turn ends, condition you into thinking it ends one place and then, again, flat out take another turn betting you are too afraid my turn is still going to take yours.

If this was SC I could low poke to steal back a turn, GI to steal back a turn. RE to steal back a turn, or sidestep into launcher (for free) to steal back a turn.

Turn order is messy. That be the dance. Right?

 

[DarkSado]

You can also low poke to steal your turn back when negative. Try to Nj out of plus frames and land a full damage jump combo for no resources. Back dash away to punish you for taking your turn; likely with a full combo. Could Also stop mid string, be -7 and flat out take another turn betting you won't notice yours passed you by. Could cancel into special to manipulate where a turn ends, condition you into thinking it ends one place and then, again, flat out take another turn betting you are too afraid my turn is still going to take yours.

If this was SC I could low poke to steal back a turn, GI to steal back a turn. RE to steal back a turn, or sidestep into launcher (for free) to steal back a turn.

Turn order is messy. That be the dance. Right?

That's fine and all but when armor launcher was in mkx people had a riot this literally equivalent to it.

 

[Blewdew]

That's fine and all but when armor launcher was in mkx people had a riot this literally equivalent to it.

Fbu2 don‘t have armor though

 

[DarkSado]

Fbu2 don‘t have armor though

yea but it steel your turn with a launcher what people complain about.

 

[WA-Finest]

Pretty sure FBU2 is almost if not always unbeatable so it doesn't matter much if it has armor

 

[Blewdew]

yea but it steel your turn with a launcher what people complain about.

Difference is that in pre patch mkx you could unga bunga use them, fbu2 have very specific requirements and can be blown up easily on read if you can‘t do the os which is hard to do. It‘s like a night and day comparison.

 

[Suntory]

The few times I've managed to fbu2 were very rewarding. When it's done to me, it really puts me in my place to not play on autopilot. It adds depth to the neutral game imo.

 

[DarkSado]

Difference is that in pre patch mkx you could unga bunga use them, fbu2 have very specific requirements and can be blown up easily on read if you can‘t do the os which is hard to do. It‘s like a night and day comparison.

I don't think you see the picture here LMAO.

 

[Mr.Khen]

Flawless-block is a kool mechanic. but mastering it, is a serious pain in my a$$..., it requires me to PLAY THE GAME A LOTTTT.
To practice flawless blocking every move with a gap, every wake-up vs every character... to me? that's way more than my
monthly work load and I work o lot!

Otherwise I would love to get good at is because it grants a player an access to whole different level of the game.
Ngl work/life makes it hard to put the time required into learning it properly.
Hopefully as the game gets older flawless blocking will start coming out more naturally..

 

[Gooberking]

Pretty sure FBU2 is almost if not always unbeatable so it doesn't matter much if it has armor

As a Frost player, I take issue with this.

 

[NoCharge]

Flawless block is good in theory, but executed poorly in practice. It's a great mechanic for a deeper game that makes the opponent think twice when performing a plus on block string or spamming pokes etc. The good execution is fb-ing jumpins makes them not cancel into anything, gaps that you can punish with u2/u3, pokes that don't cancel. But the bad thing is the gaps that are punishable by normals and flawless blocking is unnecessary, or ones that are the same on block when flawless blocked or not (ex. Shao Kahn's f34).
If they made all string gaps only punishable on flawless block and jumpins and pokes more negative on flawless block it would be a great game changer and more incentive to learn this mechanic.
As of now it is pretty redundant imo.