Does Flawless Block ruin neutral?

[WA-Finest]

As a Frost player, I take issue with this.

Is Frost's unreliable? I just meant that it usually connects before the next attack in the string, I didn't really factor in range I guess. Sheeva's is pretty stubby, too.

 

[Gooberking]

Is Frost's unreliable? I just meant that it usually connects before the next attack in the string, I didn't really factor in range I guess. Sheeva's is pretty stubby, too.

Frost's U2 has really good range, but slow startup. So she can reach things others can't (Like Sheeva), but the start up is so slow that it gets stuffed by a lot of quick strings where the next hit happens faster than she can get it out.

 

[Juggs]

This doesn't contradict what I said, though. Once you're already all the way in and somebody is being hit or blocking something at point blank, the neutral game is over until it resets.

True. Just wanted to provide more clarification honestly.

 

[WA-Finest]

Frost's U2 has really good range, but slow startup. So she can reach things others can't (Like Sheeva), but the start up is so slow that it gets stuffed by a lot of quick strings where the next hit happens faster than she can get it out.

Oh, I guess I should fact check myself next time. I can't think of a single time I've ever seen an U2 get blown up in all the games I've played/watched so I just assumed.

 

[Javoo On Fire]

It's amazing that some people bait pokes to specifically flawlessblock punish, shits amazing I can't do it reliably unfortunately

 

[Cobainevermind87]

It's amazing that some people bait pokes to specifically flawlessblock punish, shits amazing I can't do it reliably unfortunately

There are easy ways to set it up. Take a string that's -5 or -6 or so, Sub's b321 for example. If the Sub user sees his opponent is always immediately d1ing after he throws out that string, all he has to do is not press block until he's fully recovered from the string. Auto flawless block.

 

[Metin]

Following arguments on flawless block mechanic are completely bullshit;

• it is completely useless ( da fak? More than one year has passed after the release and you can't get it still? Kill yourself or keep playing your low level gameplay )
• u2 only good at x situation ( and again da fak? it is useful at many situation )
• if you use Regular flawless block without pressing u3 or U2 you can only get back your turn ( no, you can punish many things with it )

imo there is 3 key tech to learn how to play mk11;

• Plus frames
• Flawless block
• Micro Crouch

if you keep working on these techs your opponent can never get back it's turn easily.

 

[WhooFlungPoo]

There are a few things in Mk 11 that detract from it's focus on slower, neutral-based combat, like the Fatal Blow mechanic, chip-kill from normals/DOT, projectiles that don't collide, ect.

Then there's Flawless Block. A mechanic that just invalidates a ton of strings from just existing. The system could work in a game where combos are more freeform, but one with predetermined strings?

What would MK 11 be like without Flawless Block?

Shang tsung could actually use his strings for better pressure.

 

[Marinjuana]

When compared to armored B3's from Injustice 2 or armored reversals in MKX, it's easy to praise flawless block. It's just a better version of that armored reversal/trap meta.

F34 , Shao kahn ( for example).

Shao's stagger f3 and special cancel it, it's also a mid string that you can now special cancel into big damage. I'd say that's pretty solid.

Shang tsung could actually use his strings for better pressure.

Shang has excellent strings.

 

[WhooFlungPoo]

When compared to armored B3's from Injustice 2 or armored reversals in MKX, it's easy to praise flawless block. It's just a better version of that armored reversal/trap meta.



Shao's stagger f3 and special cancel it, it's also a mid string that you can now special cancel into big damage. I'd say that's pretty solid.



Shang has excellent strings.

Compared to others i dont agree. Flawless block gaps everywhere, b3 u4 can me mashed out of and has a gap, it should crush pokes, no reason for it to be mashed out of when others can yolo. His start up is a tad too slow, and his whiff recovery is abysmal. You have to commit with warlock and a breakaway means full combo on him. Other characters can whiff into block or d1 mash easy. I just wholeheartedly disagree about his strings. You literally have to make no mistakes or you get blown up where others are saved by frames. No where in here am i saying hes bad but he needs adjustments.

And i should have added for soul eater was what i meant for pressure. Its a rushdown toolkit with a zoners baseline, needs something pressure-ish with some better stagger potential to shine imo.

 

[MrArcher15]

It’s cool but I didn’t care for the fact that i have to Guess about taking my turn back. Why do I have to play mind games when you’re -7? I’d abuse it too but I still never really liked it

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Shao's stagger f3 and special cancel it, it's also a mid string that you can now special cancel into big damage. I'd say that's pretty solid.

I dunno about that. I played a Shao recently and usually I can't fuzzy guard anything, but f34 I would somehow duck the throw or block the shoulder every time. Dunno if I was just lucky or whatever. When you go for any ender you basically 50/50 not only your opponent (assuming you can't fuzzy it) but yourself too since for some reason it seems f34 is unsafe on flawless block now.

I don't think the risk/reward is good on this move's options as a whole. You have to stagger on f3 a lot to establish any kind of mindgame and that's risky too since f3 by itself is also unsafe. I think NRS should have made f3 by itself safe to make the string more threatening.

 

[Gooberking]

It’s cool but I didn’t care for the fact that i have to Guess about taking my turn back. Why do I have to play mind games when you’re -7? I’d abuse it too but I still never really liked it

Because Fighting Games

 

[MrArcher15]

Because Fighting Games

You are missing the point. What fighting game can make me lose 30% for trying to take my turn back? Sure some games have parries, maybe invincible moves they can do after, but losing 30% at basically any time if they have meter?? and the fact that only some characters can make you lose that much is an issue too

 

[Blewdew]

I don't think you see the picture here LMAO.

What big picture? That it‘s a tool to steal turns? I‘m aware of that and I understand that it can be bullshit in specific scenarios but still you‘re comparing a specific counter attack that is very Ressource hungry and don‘t have armor to 1-Bar armored launchers that you could just do in neutral that lead to massive damage and were safe for most of the time.

 

[Gooberking]

You are missing the point. What fighting game can make me lose 30% for trying to take my turn back? Sure some games have parries, maybe invincible moves they can do after, but losing 30% at basically any time if they have meter?? and the fact that only some characters can make you lose that much is an issue too

How about in SC where I can side step your attempt to take your turn for a full on max damage combo with just about any character in the game, and it doesn't even require meter to do it.

Getting popped with a turn stealing FB basically means your being predictable about when, how, and the tempo you are using to start your turns. If you were predictably using highs, then the other player could be using d1's, d2's, or micro ducking to rob you of that turn. If you like to throw then they could be using d2's, or micro ducking to make you eat way more damage than getting reversal FB'ed for free.

If you are being predictable, you always run the risk of being read, and having a counter strategy applied to your behavior. There are always counter plays to anything you do. If you get read, you get read. Reversal FB is just one way for someone to call you out. I don't see any difference to getting called out in some other way. Except maybe that it's harder to do than some things and requires resources.

 

[MrArcher15]

How about in SC where I can side step your attempt to take your turn for a full on max damage combo with just about any character in the game, and it doesn't even require meter to do it.

Getting popped with a turn stealing FB basically means your being predictable about when, how, and the tempo you are using to start your turns. If you were predictably using highs, then the other player could be using d1's, d2's, or micro ducking to rob you of that turn. If you like to throw then they could be using d2's, or micro ducking to make you eat way more damage than getting reversal FB'ed for free.

If you are being predictable, you always run the risk of being read, and having a counter strategy applied to your behavior. There are always counter plays to anything you do. If you get read, you get read. Reversal FB is just one way for someone to call you out. I don't see any difference to getting called out in some other way. Except maybe that it's harder to do than some things and requires resources.

Ok but in sc I’m sure the whole cast can side step me and do that right? In mk only a few characters in the cast can take 30%. I know geras can, haven’t been playing the game so maybe there are more. Yes of course everything comes down to reads and being predictable, I don’t mind being flawless blocked for using a string with a block. I do mind having to think about how to take my turn back. That isn’t something that should make me lose that much health. Even SonicFox said flawless block intro launcher has to go

 

[villainous monk]

I think it's a useful mechanic unique to mk11. Honestly this mechanic should have been in mkxl has a massive counter to run cancel and all that ridiculous armour in that game.

The offense was severely oppressive to any sort of defense you tried to counter. Flawless blocks in mkx would have been great.

Has for neutral and flawless blocks I think it greatly helps your neutral. Punishing strings with u2 makes opponents most of the time think twice about throwing out random strings. NRS needs to keep this mechanic going forward just keep it has is. No more no less.

I dunno about that. I played a Shao recently and usually I can't fuzzy guard anything, but f34 I would somehow duck the throw or block the shoulder every time. Dunno if I was just lucky or whatever. When you go for any ender you basically 50/50 not only your opponent (assuming you can't fuzzy it) but yourself too since for some reason it seems f34 is unsafe on flawless block now.

I don't think the risk/reward is good on this move's options as a whole. You have to stagger on f3 a lot to establish any kind of mindgame and that's risky too since f3 by itself is also unsafe. I think NRS should have made f3 by itself safe to make the string more threatening.

Yeah it is what it is now. You can fuzzy it. Hop kick after f34. Duck the throw... It's not has strong has it was before because of the fb, the massive gap & how minus it is. I shit my pants when I'm flawless blocked in that gap.

 

[grandabx]

Its a great mechanic but you shouldn't be able to use it during hit stun.

This is my main problem with it along with it not having any whiff animation.

Being able to do them at the start of a string or in between gaps is fine, but through blockstun? Characters need more cancel windows for strings if that stays the same.

Even in games like Street Fighter 3, Garou and Guilty Gear, I just never like mechanics that change your opponent's frame data. It complicates the game with uneeded math and lets players be a bit passive on proper neutral spacing/reacting by doing the most common thing when a problem shows up (blocking). It's Street Fighter Alpha 2 with its Alpha Counter system. If you make your opponent defend your attack, you shouldn't be punished for it in between its sequence with free damage (ala the STILL problematic Breakaways). Red parries in SF3 are the same in function.

MK doesn't need Flawless Blocking. It would be a better game if combos were more freeform. How many character variations are less used because of their strings? Now add FB (and Breakaway) on top of that.

Parries work way better in SF3, Garou and GG because there's no such thing as a predetermined combo. You're not limited to how your strings operate. You don't even need combos to win in those games.