Question - Hellfire Did Hellfire deserve to be destroyed so badly?

[Bar_Bar13]

We all heard the tales of old, broken, stupid OP Hellfire before he got bludgeoned with the nerf bat. He had "Incredible chip damage, unmatched pressure, and bonkers damage". He was said to be top 5. But was he? While HF's pressure was good, it isn't as god as Kang's, or Cage's, or Jax's, and certainly not Quan, all characters whose offense wasn't touched mostly. He had good damage, but other characters had way higher too. Did he really deserve to be killed like this? Or was he just never allowed to live?

 

[Wigy]

He deserved to die

 

[MrSunshine]

Yes. Next is Cage ;-)

 

[Wigy]

Yes. Next is Cage ;-)

Pls no

Liu better come to the grave with a list if he gets nerfed for no reason

 

[Darkling]

Cage's chip damage is nowhere near Scor's, and Cage's bnb damage is fairly low too

 

[ghostwriteous]

Yes he deserved to die and I hope he burns in hell!

 

[PND_Ketchup]

He wasn't destroyed though, he's still good.

 

[God Confirm]

He's fine

 

[Mitsuownes]

No.

Meanwhile buff Quan Chi.

Move on.

 

[Matix218]

He's still good

 

[Cossner]

 

[youthinkyoubadyouaintbad]

He's fine just needs more infrared skins

 

[FluffyKittenPops]

lol Thundergod Raiden took the nerf hammer like a champ

 

[God Confirm]

Thundergod got the D

 

[JDM]

He's still okay definitely not all that great anymore. He deserved some toning down for sure but I think they overdid it.

 

[God Confirm]

Give him Ninjutsus F2 please

 

[Slips]

The only nerf I didn't agree with was the 214 nerf where the special cancel frames were increased. Certain combos don't work anymore, especially on pixie characters. The one that hurts most is jk~tele 214~ex tele which is mainly only reliable when jk hits air to air. njp, flame aura, 214 tele, 123 ex tele I think is next to impossible if possible at all now.

Not to mention 214~ex spear no longer combos if they take the 4 of his 214 pressure.

Other than that the nerfs were fine. The issues he has now are issues he's always had; f4 being too slow and probably the 2nd worst armor in the game. (Quan having the worst)

EDIT:

The 214 nerf also hurt Inferno badly, but what hurt worst was the low minion grab damage scaling increase, (seems equal to spear's damage scaling now) so it's kind of a wash.

 

[God Confirm]

The only nerf I didn't agree with was the 214 nerf where the special cancel frames were increased. Certain combos don't work anymore, especially on pixie characters. The one that hurts most is jk~tele 214~ex tele which is mainly only reliable when jk hits air to air. njp, flame aura, 214 tele, 123 ex tele I think is next to impossible if possible at all now.

Not to mention 214~ex spear no longer combos if they take the 4 of his 214 pressure.

Other than that the nerfs were fine. The issues he has now are issues he's always had; f4 being too slow and probably the 2nd worst armor in the game. (Quan having the worst)

EDIT:

The 214 nerf also hurt Inferno badly, but what hurt worst was the low minion grab damage scaling increase, (seems equal to spear's damage scaling now) so it's kind of a wash.

Hellfires armor is way better than say DVorahs. Its not a useful counterpoke tool, but it breaks pressure just fine

I agree the 214 shud be changed back

 

[Slips]

Hellfires armor is way better than say DVorahs. Its not a useful counterpoke tool, but it breaks pressure just fine

I agree the 214 shud be changed back

On knockdown Scorp's armor is fine, but I'd say D'Vorah's armor is better to get out of pressure. Her's gives a hard knockdown with good advantage at least. Scorpion's armor knocks down but leaves him at disadvantage and has to keep guessing even after he successfully guesses right out of pressure.

 

[God Confirm]

On knockdown Scorp's armor is fine, but I'd say D'Vorah's armor is better to get out of pressure. Her's gives a hard knockdown with good advantage at least. Scorpion's armor knocks down but leaves him at disadvantage and has to keep guessing even after he successfully guesses right out of pressure.

But hers is 20 frames and gets broken real easy, Scorps is fast and multihitting so can get you out of tiny gaps

Is it actually -5 on hit tho? Because that does seem a bit unnecessary maybe you are right about it being worse. Only needs to be like +2 or even neutral or something, damn

 

[STRYKIE]

The economic problem with Scorpion, variation-wide, is the following:

There's a lot of "he doesn't have that, because he has this"

Except a lot of the "this's" have slowly been taken away with no compensation.

Say what you want about the prospect of Ninjutsu's F2 being an overhead (for the record it's not necessarily what I would do to improve the variation), but it's frame data reeks of "F2 is an overhead, so we're going to reward people for having the balls to block low correctly."

But that's not a thing in the slightest.

I get that this thread is mainly directed at Hellfire, just putting things into perspective.

Hellfires armor is way better than say DVorahs.

EX Ovipositor Rush frame data:

Start-up: 20
On block: -12
on hit: +17
recovery: 23 frames

EX Takedown frame data:

Start-up: 11
On block: -32
On hit: -5
Recovery: 58 frames


The only 1-up Scorpion's armor has is that it interrupts gaps more reliably, that's it, but that doesn't count for shit they're allowed to get back up in your grill and start hammering away all over again because you're at negative frames.

 

[Slips]

But hers is 20 frames and gets broken real easy, Scorps is fast and multihitting so can get you out of tiny gaps

Is it actually -5 on hit tho? Because that does seem a bit unnecessary maybe you are right about it being worse. Only needs to be like +2 or even neutral or something, damn

Scorpion's isn't multi-hitting and 20 frame armor I admit is bad for wakeup, but not for getting out of pressure. Scorpion can get off the ground better than D'Vorah, but D'Vorah can get out of pressure better.

 

[Doctor Rektangle]

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

Just one of several examples where, while one pile of dirt is erased from the earth, several others of a much dirtier shade are left alone and even compounded upon.

I'm not a big advocate for nerfs at all. But it's even more senseless when other plainly dirtier strategies (Swarm Queen cancels, A-List cancels, Summoner vortex, etc.) are left untouched.
Tremor was one thing...losing 2 and 3 as mids was a big deal at the time, but it was proven justified with the buffs to his specials. It made sense. I still don't get what they were trying to accomplish by nuking Scorpion. He's still viable, sure, but he wasn't exactly terrifying beforehand.

 

[Second Saint]

On knockdown Scorp's armor is fine, but I'd say D'Vorah's armor is better to get out of pressure. Her's gives a hard knockdown with good advantage at least. Scorpion's armor knocks down but leaves him at disadvantage and has to keep guessing even after he successfully guesses right out of pressure.

D'vorah's armor is not a hard knockdown. Also, I don't think the frame data is completely right on how negative Scorpion's armor is. I took it to the lab against Sub's wakeup slide (9 frames) and was able to make it trade with his d4 (8 frames) and outright beat it with d1/3 (6/7). If I'm not missing something here, that makes him -1 or possibly neutral if I just didn't hit the 1 frame link to beat slide with d4. I guess there could be travel frames? Definitely not many considering how close you are after EX bf4.

Either way, they're both pretty bad reversals all around.