Define Complete Character

[CrimsonShadow]

I think a few people are right.

@Arqwart was the closest I think. Some people feel that any time a character doesn’t have certain moves, they’re incomplete. I happen to think that just reskinning characters with the exact same moves and better graphics is pretty lazy, however (and we all know that the devs would get blown up in reviews if they did this).

Several people have also correctly pointed out that some people believe characters in NRS games without variations had a ton of specials, when they maybe had 4-5 max. There are some exceptions, but they are just that — exceptions, not the rule.

In general, like with many things, everybody has something different in mind, and what is ‘complete’ to one person might not be another.

Also, I guarantee that if you took some of the same variations from recent games and made a new game with that 1 variation as the only version of the character, 50% of the people would say it is ‘complete’; another group of people might say they don’t like the character’s design, etc. But people would somehow think that that game is better than a game with two other options to pick from, just on principle.

 

[John_NX]

I think a few people are right.

@Arqwart was the closest I think. Some people feel that any time a character doesn’t have certain moves, they’re incomplete. I happen to think that just reskinning characters with the exact same moves and better graphics is pretty lazy, however (and we all know that the devs would get blown up in reviews if they did this).

Several people have also correctly pointed out that some people believe characters in NRS games without variations had a ton of specials, when they maybe had 4-5 max. There are some exceptions, but they are just that — exceptions, not the rule.

In general, like with many things, everybody has something different in mind, and what is ‘complete’ to one person might not be another.

Also, I guarantee that if you took some of the same variations from recent games and made a new game with that 1 variation as the only version of the character, 50% of the people would say it is ‘complete’; another group of people might say they don’t like the character’s design, etc. But people would somehow think that that game is better than a game with two other options to pick from, just on principle.

Jade is also a victim of the "variation" system. I think her damage was based around her being able to zone across the board and this is why Jaded and untameable are suffering from low damage without having any real zoning.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Jade is also a victim of the "variation" system. I think her damage was based around her being able to zone across the board and this is why Jaded and untameable are suffering from low damage without having any real zoning.

This is easily correctable within the variation system. What you’re thinking of is the character design itself.

 

[Tom Brady]

Not sure why ppl think more complete means more specials, then uses that ridiculous logic to shoot down a point that has nothing to do with the number of specials a character has.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Short answer:
Entitlement.

Long answer:
MK9 is what people always reference when arguing that somehow without variations we'd have "complete characters".

• Lets take Subzero for example:
  • MK9; 4 specials and approx 11 strings
  • MKX: 4-5 specials (depending on variation) 14-16 strings (depending on variation)
  • MK11: 2-6 specials (based on Tourney variations) 11 strings (depending on variation)

It seems to be a case of people seeing a ton of custom moves and believing that without customs or variations in general they would get all those moves in a single non variation character. Which they simply wouldn't.

If i'm wrong, i'm more than happy to hear about it.

The number of specials doesn't equate to what I view as a character's completeness. I think a character's move set is a good addition to the game if they do something unique and if they're decently balanced. Variations don't hinder completeness, but I am against variations for a different reason.

I think Sub-Zero is a bad example to use in terms of variations making a character more complete. In MK9 he was a garbage piece of shit, but he filled a more unique role than he does in 11, his moves were clearly made to go together. He was just a shit box though. As for MKX, can anybody seriously tell me that NRS didn't know from the very conception of his variations that Grandmaster would dwarf the other two to the point of making them useless? Anyone with three brain cells could tell that without even playing the game. It's obvious they didn't have enough ideas to give Sub-Zero 3 unique variations (despite the fact that a cryomancer's power set would give them infinite choices for variety , they think he can only make weapons and chuck ice balls). I feel this way because- MK11 Sub is just a cookie cutter 50/50 character and lost what made him unique (the ice klone) because they were too big of pussies to give it to him. He is good, that's not what I'm saying. He just doesn't stand out in any way anymore.

The reason this bugs the hell out of me was he was perfect in Injustice 2. They fucking finally found a way to use the ice klone, NOT give him garbage normals to compensate for the klone, BUT use smart design decisions so that he is neither garbage nor dominant. He was probably no better than low mid tier but damnit he was fun and perfectly useable.

 

[Marinjuana]

How is saying "pick the other variation for those bad matches" any different than "pick another character for those bad match ups" as gets said in any non-variation game?

The point is that the variation system exacerbates that problem. Like how would you buff questionable-tier Born Again Cetrion without buffing top tier Spring Cleaning Cetrion? Maybe Frost-Byte Frost could be a more well polished and well thought out trap character if there wasn't other variations to support.

And people understand that having to switch to another character for matchups is not an indication of good balance, and they would criticize the balance of that character for it. But if one variation doesn't perform consistently and the other two are fine, people(and NRS) are more willing to overlook that as an issue IMO. The idea being that it's not that the character is bad, because you can play different variations in different matchups and maybe the other variations are better. But it's still a different character on the select screen.

I think the system provides variety and it's been fun, but I do think it is watering down the characters a bit.

 

[Tertian]

I think a few people are right.

@Arqwart was the closest I think. Some people feel that any time a character doesn’t have certain moves, they’re incomplete. I happen to think that just reskinning characters with the exact same moves and better graphics is pretty lazy, however (and we all know that the devs would get blown up in reviews if they did this).

Several people have also correctly pointed out that some people believe characters in NRS games without variations had a ton of specials, when they maybe had 4-5 max. There are some exceptions, but they are just that — exceptions, not the rule.

In general, like with many things, everybody has something different in mind, and what is ‘complete’ to one person might not be another.

Also, I guarantee that if you took some of the same variations from recent games and made a new game with that 1 variation as the only version of the character, 50% of the people would say it is ‘complete’; another group of people might say they don’t like the character’s design, etc. But people would somehow think that that game is better than a game with two other options to pick from, just on principle.

all of this^

I wholly concur that what is "complete" to one person might not be to another.

 

[M2Dave]

@Arqwart was the closest I think. Some people feel that any time a character doesn’t have certain moves, they’re incomplete. I happen to think that just reskinning characters with the exact same moves and better graphics is pretty lazy, however (and we all know that the devs would get blown up in reviews if they did this).

Laziness is "micro-managing", as Tom would say, the variations in a predictable manner. For example, Warlock Shang Tsung has ground eruption, one of the best special moves in the game. To compensate for the advantages of the ground eruption, he is given another special move that serves limited purpose. The same is accurate for Reborn Scorpion with teleport cancel and aerial throw.

Players prefer more options so they can express themselves in how they play. This lack of expression has also been the primary criticism of Street Fighter 5, but at least Street Fighter 5 has no variations or, even worse, moves that are locked behind customizations that "tease" and cause the player to fantasize about character completeness.

 

[Error404]

If you want to compare complete vs incomplete you can look at Kotals variations and get a perfect example.

Ascension gives you an ability to combo from Kotals long normals , while covering his weak pokes and slow mids with a powerful command grab. Thus , not sentencing you to death at any point of the match. This is a complete character.

Buluc literally gives you a mechanic , that requires you not hitting your opponent with any strings in order to stack totems . The entire totem stacking gimmick is meaningless and out sync with Kotals normals ,because most of them advance very far. He also doesn't get anything to help him keep the opponent away while stacking or anything to help him fight upclose. This is garbage.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

If you want to compare complete vs incomplete you can look at Kotals variations and get a perfect example.

Ascension gives you an ability to combo from Kotals long normals , while covering his weak pokes and slow mids with a powerful command grab. Thus , not sentencing you to death at any point of the match. This is a complete character.

Buluc literally gives you a mechanic , that requires you not hitting your opponent with any strings in order to stack totems . The entire totem stacking gimmick is meaningless and out sync with Kotals normals ,because most of them advance very far. He also doesn't get anything to help him keep the opponent away while stacking or anything to help him fight upclose. This is garbage.

They are both complete things . Changing a grapler style for a setup style of play , as ez as that . Totems on theyr own are good enough to substitute long combos with shorter ones with comparable if not even better dmg and grand discus serves to keep u safe and make a nearly full screen gap for u to continue to stack . As for ur complete ascension , u didnt remember that he has a distant sun ray right ? A move to kill opponent with 1-2% hp or eat a full combo punish . Both of them are complete variations and are no different then mkx variations . Totemic is another story tho. Problem that players have is that they think (as someone already said) that complete characters would get all of the special moves at once ,which is not the case . On the other hand custom variations would make so called complete characters cuz it will grant u the power to take the best moves and balance would go through the window. Dont get me wrong , custom variations should be in the game , but not untill all moves are on equal ground (in power and usefullness ).

 

[Error404]

They are both complete things . Changing a grapler style for a setup style of play , as ez as that . Totems on theyr own are good enough to substitute long combos with shorter ones with comparable if not even better dmg and grand discus serves to keep u safe and make a nearly full screen gap for u to continue to stack . As for ur complete ascension , u didnt remember that he has a distant sun ray right ? A move to kill opponent with 1-2% hp or eat a full combo punish . Both of them are complete variations and are no different then mkx variations . Totemic is another story tho. Problem that players have is that they think (as someone already said) that complete characters would get all of the special moves at once ,which is not the case . On the other hand custom variations would make so called complete characters cuz it will grant u the power to take the best moves and balance would go through the window. Dont get me wrong , custom variations should be in the game , but not untill all moves are on equal ground (in power and usefullness ).

Lmao . Ex disc isn't helping upclose. It doesn't give you a mid or a threat of your pokes.

 

[DeftMonk]

It's a lovely combination of nostalgia glasses and a natural result of the variation system. A "complete character" appears to be a classic character with all their key moves at all times.

For example: Noob could be considered incomplete cause he doesnt naturally have his slide clone. Sub-Zero is "missing" his ice clone outside of Avalanche. Shang has ground skulls in only one variation. Etc. etc.

Basically, the argument always seems to stem from the idea that the beloved classics should always have every single one of their classic (aka MK9) moves as their base kit. Variations are considered icky cause they sometimes make that not the case.

In mk11 many characters are missing certain moves that are required for the proper usage of a normal or a string(which said string was balanced with this move in mind). Without these moves the character's gameplan feels like "wtf is going on" or "why does this exist if it leads to nothing?".

For example: string A advancing mid that leads to airborne state so with move C can create juggles. Frame data of said move:12 frame start up and -8 on block.
String b- advancing mid that cant lead to anything except hard knockdown. Frame data of said move: 10 frame start up,-5 on block more damage than string A.

In that situation there is no reason to ever use string A if move C is absent. mk11 variation system has some wonky variations with shit like this. This imo leads to variations ffeeling incomplete moreso than some move is absent from previous game.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Lmao . Ex disc isn't helping upclose. It doesn't give you a mid or a threat of your pokes.

Point of that move is to keep u safe on block , not to win u a poke war or to give u a 10 frame mid so u can cheese things out.

 

[ABACABB]

For me complete character is one who have :
fast mid , good pokes , combo potential , throw kb , fast high projectile , good ant air move

anything extra

 

[theotherguy]

fast mid , good pokes , combo potential , throw kb , fast high projectile , good ant air move

So what if the character had less combo potential, no throw KB, but more damage overall? May not be your idea of a complete character, but would you still say they were?

 

[Ck AeroVoid]

Complete: having all the necessary or appropriate parts.
Character: a person in a novel, play, or movie./the mental and moral qualities distinctive to an individual.

 

[ABACABB]

So what if the character had less combo potential, no throw KB, but more damage overall? May not be your idea of a complete character, but would you still say they were?

yes , or no combos no throw kb but added zoning special moves.

 

[Second Saint]

I don't know about this prompt but a good example to me of variation system hurting the game is string follow ups that are arbitrarily unique to a variation. Do the designs of Jade, Kano or D'vorah really benefit from not having those strings in all variations? It just feels limiting.

And then some variations have gimmicks that only work in 40% of their matchups and everyone just says to pick the other variation for those bad matches, rather then that character having a "complete" kit built around their gimmick or whatnot.

The extra strings are definitely a good example of something that makes a character feel incomplete. It's why I don't like Arachnophobia much. Why even have a +4 on block string like f224 if it's a totally unusable button that begs to be full combo punished? Literally every other button she has I use in some capacity, but f224, without parasite strings, doesn't exist.

For that matter, nearly every example I can think of when an ability replaces a core special also breaks cohesion and makes the character feel incomplete. V3 Skarlet losing tentacle, FoN Cetrion losing wall, KK D'vorah losing katipo rush, etc. Nearly everytime an ability replaces something, it's replacing something integral with something that is usually worse and never better.

I don't even think any of those specials are bad. It's just that balancing them as if they're upgrades, when they don't fulfill the same roles, and usually aren't incredible on their own sucks.

 

[Error404]

Point of that move is to keep u safe on block , not to win u a poke war or to give u a 10 frame mid so u can cheese things out.

Yes , thats why the character has a gaping hole in his gameplay upclose and is incomplete.

 

[Deleted member 5032]

In game design, there's a big disparity between quantity and quality. The best example is in procedurally-generated content, such as Skyrim's radiant quests or the infinite random dungeons of a roguelike. Procedural generation allows you to quickly create a large amount of rather mundane content. On the flip side is manually-created content. These are the quests that were written by humans, delicately paced out with purposeful ups and downs. The maps created with hidden bonuses and specific gameplay in mind. They take much longer to create but yield a much more compelling and complete experience.

I believe variations take MK into the realm of the watered-down paint-by-numbers style of game design. Rather than letting the designers go in and create a "complete" Sub-Zero and ensuring his overall design compliments itself, they can only create these "chunks" of the character that are meant to be stitched together like some kind of Frankenstein's monster.

So, to me, a complete character is one that was designed to be complete; a character whose moves compliment their playstyle, not a character that's just a hodgepodge of disparate abilities.

I also believe that's why the game feels more dull than previous entries; the designers seem to be afraid of giving characters anything that could offset the game's balance. But that fear is the result of this design paradigm. When you're creating a complete character, designing them in full from the ground up, you have more control over what they can and can't do. But when you're just mixing ingredients like some kind of alchemist, you never know what you're going to end up with. This uncertainty seems to keep the designers from taking any kind of chances with the character designs, leading to the dull designs of MK11.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Yes , thats why the character has a gaping hole in his gameplay upclose and is incomplete.

D3/d1 on hit into stand 12 is as good close range as ur gonna need , also kotal is not ment for close range rush down , he is a wiff punisher .

 

[ticklebandit!]

I guess i want more options out of my character. Not in a I want every character to be a jack of all trades archetype sort of way, but MK11 and MKX feel soooo limited in their respective gameplay. You play V1 Sub in MK11 he's an anti zoner, need to check your opponents neutral with a slide or do a set up in the corner? too bad, those are different variations. Fighting games are amazing because every single match is different, you have to constantly adapt on the fly, limiting my options in which to adapt make for a stale game.

 

[ticklebandit!]

Also for how long were we discovering new tech with MK9??? Or injustice 1 or 2?? When was the last time we discovered MK11 "tech"?? Characters like Baraka were figured out in the beta almost lol

 

[DixieFlatline78]

If you want to compare complete vs incomplete you can look at Kotals variations and get a perfect example.

Ascension gives you an ability to combo from Kotals long normals , while covering his weak pokes and slow mids with a powerful command grab. Thus , not sentencing you to death at any point of the match. This is a complete character.

Buluc literally gives you a mechanic , that requires you not hitting your opponent with any strings in order to stack totems . The entire totem stacking gimmick is meaningless and out sync with Kotals normals ,because most of them advance very far. He also doesn't get anything to help him keep the opponent away while stacking or anything to help him fight upclose. This is garbage.

Disagree, and it's not just me. Everybody is saying Buluc is the character's x-factor. Kotal's slow normals and large hurt box make it super hard for him to approach in a lot of matchups, so Buluc makes it so he doesnt really have to. Cant wade through a character's zoning? Get a life lead then hang back and stack totems and sunlight. He already has the highest health in the game. Build that lifelead and use his big unbreakable damage to create an even bigger gap.

Buluc is so useful. Maybe it's just not your style and that's cool, but the comparisons to a Dark Souls boss are super accurate.

 

[Second Saint]

Also for how long were we discovering new tech with MK9??? Or injustice 1 or 2?? When was the last time we discovered MK11 "tech"?? Characters like Baraka were figured out in the beta almost lol

I still find new setups with buzzed every time I take it to the lab with a new goal. But D'vorah is the exception, not the rule.

Still find new Harley tech when I boot up I:GAU and I2 for that matter.