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Strategy Dealing with and Punishing Zoners

StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
KonDcnT said:
I keep teeth down at all times vs batman.
Click to expand...
This matchup is purely dependent on getting the lifelead. If you have it, tactics like this can work (though he can get in for free whenver he wants with bats).
If he get's the lifelead, Batman zones Joker out pretty easily and it can be very difficult to mount a comeback.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Kinda nitpicky, but I would change MB batarang from "Safe" to "A shit-ton of advantage" lol. I wake up every morning unable to comprehend the reasoning behind giving batarangs over 30f of block advantage on MB, but limiting our canisters to the teens when they have the startup that they do.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Does anyone have a relatively solid number on how many frames it takes for a full screen gunshot? It's 16 frames of startup, but the travel time is way longer than a gunshot should be lol. I'm thinking 25-27 or so for startup + the bullet to reach the opponent at full screen, but that's just a guesstimate.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
The best way to test that is doing BANG! and a slower startup projectile at the same time both from full screen. If gun hits them before the projectile appears then it is faster than that projectiles startup, if not then it is slower.
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Qwark28 said:
You're doing this in training mode vs cpu?
Click to expand...
It seems like it would be based on the numbers. Grapple has like 29 recovery frames on whiff I think. That's one reason I'm curious about the frames of the shot. Either way, this may not matter much because good Batman players only used fullscreen grapple when they can cover it with Bats to prevent punishes.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
Qwark28 said:
You're doing this in training mode vs cpu?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I used two methods
A. I recorded batman to straight grapple -> crouch for a few seconds.
B. I set batman to wake up straight grapple and on auto block.

Both resulted in me landing a hit after I ducked straight grapple.
I don't have anyone else at the moment to test it.

On that note Updated OP
- Zatanna added.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
StevoSuprem0 said:
It seems like it would be based on the numbers. Grapple has like 29 recovery frames on whiff I think. That's one reason I'm curious about the frames of the shot. Either way, this may not matter much because good Batman players only used fullscreen grapple when they can cover it with Bats to prevent punishes.
Click to expand...
I'm assuming since it is full screen, it takes longer for the grapple hook to retract back, probably causing even more recovery.
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
OnlineRon91 said:
Yeah, I used two methods
A. I recorded batman to straight grapple -> crouch for a few seconds.
B. I set batman to wake up straight grapple and on auto block.

Both resulted in me landing a hit after I ducked straight grapple.
I don't have anyone else at the moment to test it.

On that note Updated OP
- Zatanna added.
Click to expand...
Awesome, didn't know that.
 
The PantyChrist

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
For gunshot testing I recommend aquaman. He's minus twenty on block so set joker to reversal bang and just do FTD from different ranges
 
StevoSuprem0

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Yeah I know what won't connect fullscreen. It's definitely more than 20. I'll test it out this weekend.
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I just know you can't punish Raven's gravity squeeze thing with gunshot, even though it looks like you should be able to.
 
OnlineRon91

OnlineRon91

Joker++
I know this has been touched before, but what are you guy's thoughts on heavy zoning characters such as Zatanna and Raven only have 1 hit projectiles? Would using mb f3/b3 to get in while absorbing less damage be the right step if you are losing?

I have updated the thread with the amount of hits each move does.

Also, I don't have time to test this right now but can Black Adam Black Magic be meter burned if you mb through the initial hit? thanks
 
Fromundaman

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Honestly, I can't say for everyone else, but unless you're in melee range, MB B3/F3-ing through projectiles is not worth it against Raven. You already get a free dash if you block the gravity squeeze or a full screen grab when she's traited.
The pillars will still be a guessing game as to where she aims them and if she catches you out of your dash cancel then it doesn't matter how you got around to dashing.

The only projectile of hers I could see this as being semi-useful for would be the bird, since if you crouch the projectile then dash, she can catch you out of the dash with the squeeze. Maybe by MB B3ing through it, you might be able to eat the hit then cancel into a dash fast enough that she can't punish? IDK, I haven't tested it.

That said, MB B3ing through her lift is effective, but she really should be doing lift when she sees a jump, so IDK how often that will actually come up in a real match.
 
Lord Hollow

Lord Hollow

The Sage Of Michigan.
StevoSuprem0 said:
Kinda nitpicky, but I would change MB batarang from "Safe" to "A shit-ton of advantage" lol. I wake up every morning unable to comprehend the reasoning behind giving batarangs over 30f of block advantage on MB, but limiting our canisters to the teens when they have the startup that they do.
Click to expand...
Because Joker touches himself at night.. A lot.
 
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