D1's and D4's, why?

[theotherguy]

So i'm probably going to get blown up for posting this, but thought i'd do so anyway. If nothing else i might learn something.

One thing i've never been a fan of is the use of constant D1/3/4 attacks. More than anything it's because it just looks stupid from a gameplay perspective and aesthetically. Although it obviously serves a purpose.

It seems like their only purpose given their speed and/or range is to keep the aggressor plus (let's throw in a D1 because the opponent can't do anything for 8frames) and force/condition the opponent to block low. Still get nightmares of Ermac, D3 D3 D3 D3, overhead 40% combo.

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks? IIRC going back to the days of MK1/2, the low attacks were slow as hell, and almost useless, but then again those games were never played at this level. And maybe i've just forgotten after all this time.

If you make them slower they don't get used as much, but you still need lows to allow overheads to work otherwise you just block high all day. So are sweeps B4 or equivalent enough or more standing low attacks to keep the status quo with some frame tweaks?

Also not a fan of full combo's off a D1, but that's me and my scrub gameplay with a high propensity of jumping in. Still trying to get over that.

What am I missing? Thoughts?

 

[GLoRToR]

So i'm probably going to get blown up for posting this, but thought i'd do so anyway. If nothing else i might learn something.

One thing i've never been a fan of is the use of constant D1/3/4 attacks. More than anything it's because it just looks stupid from a gameplay perspective and aesthetically. Although it obviously serves a purpose.

It seems like their only purpose given their speed and/or range is to keep the aggressor plus (let's throw in a D1 because the opponent can't do anything for 8frames) and force/condition the opponent to block low. Still get nightmares of Ermac, D3 D3 D3 D3, overhead 40% combo.

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks? IIRC going back to the days of MK1/2, the low attacks were slow as hell, and almost useless, but then again those games were never played at this level. And maybe i've just forgotten after all this time.

If you make them slower they don't get used as much, but you still need lows to allow overheads to work otherwise you just block high all day. So are sweeps B4 or equivalent enough or more standing low attacks to keep the status quo with some frame tweaks?

Also not a fan of full combo's off a D1, but that's me and my scrub gameplay with a high propensity of jumping in. Still trying to get over that.

What am I missing? Thoughts?

It's a part of the broader concept of footsies. You poke to start your turn. They're low and fast so that you can interrupt gaps with them but they are usually bad on block or whiff and can be punished hard.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

Yeah, that was probably the biggest adjustment I had to make in this game after playing MKX for so long. Low pokes in this game are nowhere near as plus on hit as they were in that game, so there's no more pokes into high starters as those will get blown up.

Instead, I've had success hitting a D1 then walking back and waiting for a whiff punish opportunity (D4s can still reach, I believe). If the opponent goes for their own D1, you'll be out of range and able to whiff punish with a mid.

 

[Circus]

So i'm probably going to get blown up for posting this, but thought i'd do so anyway. If nothing else i might learn something.

One thing i've never been a fan of is the use of constant D1/3/4 attacks. More than anything it's because it just looks stupid from a gameplay perspective and aesthetically. Although it obviously serves a purpose.

It seems like their only purpose given their speed and/or range is to keep the aggressor plus (let's throw in a D1 because the opponent can't do anything for 8frames) and force/condition the opponent to block low. Still get nightmares of Ermac, D3 D3 D3 D3, overhead 40% combo.

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks? IIRC going back to the days of MK1/2, the low attacks were slow as hell, and almost useless, but then again those games were never played at this level. And maybe i've just forgotten after all this time.

If you make them slower they don't get used as much, but you still need lows to allow overheads to work otherwise you just block high all day. So are sweeps B4 or equivalent enough or more standing low attacks to keep the status quo with some frame tweaks?

Also not a fan of full combo's off a D1, but that's me and my scrub gameplay with a high propensity of jumping in. Still trying to get over that.

What am I missing? Thoughts?

1. Low pokes like D1s can't be combo'd into anything. If you are getting hit by a special move after a D1, even if it was cancelled into a special, you just didn't block in time.

2. the pokes aren't positive on block, they are just hard to react to. You could squeeze in your own low poke or walk backwards from a certain range.

3. I don't mean to plug, but watch this video. It'll really help you understand why NRS have made the decisions they have. There really doesn't need to be any frame data changes. NRS knew exactly what they were doing when implementing this system in MK11.

 

[Gamer68]

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks? IIRC going back to the days of MK1/2, the low attacks were slow as hell, and almost useless, but then again those games were never played at this level. And maybe i've just forgotten after all this time.

Some attacks can crush lows. Example: Scorpion's B3 has him kinda hop off of the ground, so you can go over lows in some cases and counter hit.

You can also short hop (tap up quickly) over lows.

 

[Konqrr]

1. Low pokes like D1s can't be combo'd into anything. If you are getting hit by a special move after a D1, even if it was cancelled into a special, you just didn't block in time.

2. the pokes aren't positive on block, they are just hard to react to. You could squeeze in your own low poke or walk backwards from a certain range.

3. I don't mean to plug, but watch this video. It'll really help you understand why NRS have made the decisions they have. There really doesn't need to be any frame data changes. NRS knew exactly what they were doing when implementing this system in MK11.

Gdlk video @Circus

 

[xWildx]

Mids are your best friend. If someone is spamming low pokes, block, punish with your own, then go into pressure off of your plus frames.

 

[theotherguy]

FTR i haven't played MK11, just a general discussion about it based off previous games and the videos so far of MK11.

1. Low pokes like D1s can't be combo'd into anything. If you are getting hit by a special move after a D1, even if it was cancelled into a special, you just didn't block in time.

I meant me jumping in, them D1, then juggle/special move leading to 30%+ But as you say, it's my fault for doing stupid things like mistiming jumps/not blocking.

Watched the video earlier. Good stuff. Been playing FG's for a looong time, but never really got into the maths side of it with what moves have frames that beat another.

You can also short hop (tap up quickly) over lows.

This is going to be an interesting mechanic. But given the speed of lows, it seems it's going to have to be used on a read rather than reaction. If nothing else it looks better than two characters D4'ing each other.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

It seems like their only purpose given their speed and/or range is to keep the aggressor plus

Pokes are not plus on block only on hit. They are mentally to counter opponents pressure and check them.

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks?

Yes, you block it and imediately counter with your in fast poke, if you catch your opponent off guard and they don't block it you can follow with a fast normal string into combo or pressure.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

@Circus
I have a question. Me not having the OST beta I'm wondering about Flawless Block.

How exactly do you trigger it and where is it applicable. If I'm blocking a 3 hit string with a gap on last hit do I need to let off and on right before past hit or what?

 

[Saint Op Omen]

it's just like a boxers jab, shin kicks in mma & such. Same deal really.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

@Circus
I have a question. Me not having the OST beta I'm wondering about Flawless Block.

How exactly do you trigger it and where is it applicable. If I'm blocking a 3 hit string with a gap on last hit do I need to let off and on right before past hit or what?

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Thank you.

I fucking love K&M they are using thier time in beta to teach.
So it was like I thought. Block and let off and on right as the last hit connects.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Thank you.

I fucking love K&M they are using thier time in beta to teach.
So it was like I thought. Block and let off and on right as the last hit connects.

Me too man. They are real MK content creators not junk like Uncaged, Super etc.
This mechanic will be very much discussed in the future, no chip damage from zoning, immediate launcher after perfect block. Hell

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Me too man. They are real MK content creators not junk like Uncaged, Super etc.
This mechanic will be very much discussed in the future, no chip damage from zoning, immediate launcher after perfect block. Hell

I know it made me cringe halfway when I seen Maximilian Dood had 13k+ viewers on his Beta stream and Twitch streams like ZSonicFox, HoneyBee, REO only had 200-600 viewers.
I noticed Ed Boon tweeted his stream and Unroolies. He should have posted all the pros and spotlighted K&Ms Twitch.

 

[Juggs]

So i'm wondering can anything be done to stop the use of constant low attacks? IIRC going back to the days of MK1/2, the low attacks were slow as hell, and almost useless, but then again those games were never played at this level. And maybe i've just forgotten after all this time.?

Yes. You can play footsies, which is the general intention of the D4. Just like in UMK3, MK9, most Street Fighter games, etc. If you want some info on footsies, neutral, spacing, etc, you can check out this thread I made back before MKX came out: https://testyourmight.com/threads/general-discussion-about-zoning-footsies-and-the-neutral-game.49112/

Or you can check out SonicFox’s video he made recently discussing footsies and some other stuff. It was made with Injustice 2 in mind but it applies generally and he explains it pretty well with examples:

As far as the D1’s and D3’s, they are fast normals used for multiple situations. To punish a gap in strings, to poke, to counter poke, to apply pressure, etc. I believe you can cancel all of these with specials as well. Again, refer to the thread linked or SF’s video for more detailed information.

Hope this helps.

 

[Corruption100]

Yea ive been having the same problem with baraka honestly since his good strings start from a high most people either d1 or d2. It's hella annoying since both beat out most things other than a poke(unless theres a magic string im missing. B312 seems a little too slow)