Cyborg cast in Batman Vs Superman

[Eric The Scruffy]

It did. The movie wasn't made for grown men with nothing better to do than nitpick arbitrary "flaws". The superhero genre is for children whether anyone wants to admit it or not.

And the complaint about destroying buildings is ridiculous. It's an alien invasion. He doesn't know the extent of his or Zod's powers. He's new. He makes mistakes. How many people died in the Avengers battle against the aliens? Or in Captain America 2?

No where near as many, and no where near as many as however many almost certainly would have died out *AFTER* the battle in MOS do to the sheer loss of infrastructure. At the end of Avengers New York took a beating, but there was a sense that things could be rebuilt.
At the end of MOS....pack it up and move on....Metropolis is done.
Personally I take more issue with how they flash forward after the battle and the city is magically rebuilt. The movie wants to show destruction and try to give it weighty imagery, but its unwilling to deal with the consequences and responsibilities that entails.

People complained because the Superman we all grew up with has evolved and been modernized. The idea of a hero NEVER killing or NEVER letting anyone die isn't plausible anymore. Kids don't buy it these days.

I could argue this point, but I don't have to, because it still doesn't work within the context of the movie. If they wanted to make their big climax superman killing someone then they had to establish at some point earlier in the movie that he had some aversion to killing and/or that he was raised to value life which....oh yeah....he TOTALLY WASN'T! His father straight up told him to let other people including *himself* die to protect his secret.
This entire movie is a classic example of trying to eat your cake and have it to. If they want to drag superman through the mud and make him more "realistic" by having him take life then they don't get to try and treat him like he's this "ideal for humanity to strive towards".

 

[xQUANTUMx]

superman was revamped but his core values have stayed the same. MOS was not true to that.

edit: @Eric Z19 summed it up better than me, nvm

 

[SoundsLikePAUSE]

you are right however there is too much batman overlay for me to like it as much as I want to

I can understand this upsetting Batman fans. League of Shadows have always been tied to Green Arrow's world though. Chesire was a big part of Roy's life so it was inevitable that they'd bring them in. Harley is the biggest selling point of the Suicide Squad comic so anyone who reads it was expecting her to show up. DC's also been doing as much as they can to distant Harley from Joker and Batman's world and make her her own character.

GA's rogue's gallary is also a joke so they need something to work with.

@Eric Z19 You're right, they didn't build him up to be an "Ideal" or not killing being his thing. He was extremely inexperienced and did what he thought he had to do. I have no doubt this will be one of the biggest plot points of MOS2. To have him become the Superman we all want in one movie is unrealistic.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

This, Jesus Christ this. to the casual fan who doesn't give a shit, its fine, but I keep thinking the producers could never get Bruce Wayne/BM into smallville and he would never make it on the small screen especially now because they are filming that pre-batman gotham show about Jim Gordon. This is the closest they get to batman. I mean, Harley makes a cameo appearance and they're talking about the league of assasins in the show,FFS.

Stephen Amell plays a dark brooding, billionaire.....arrow? Where's sarcastic, jokerster ollie? that's his shtick.

This, I 100% agree, is exactly what happened.

This is the same issue with MOS. Arrow has modernized the Green Arrow character to make him relatable TODAY. Not just physically. He's been molded after the New52 version of the character which is much more serious. As much as I love the old Ollie, you can't blame them for wanting to make him less of the joke he was before the reboot. He's not the first character to undergo this change.

The change isn't a progression in my eyes though. Its a *regression*. Straight up: Green Arrow in his original inception was a Batman rip off. Its just a simple fact. The thing that allowed the character to endure and grow beyond his meh origins is that as Batman got more Grim Dark, Ollie retained a cynical wit that let him be a unique character in his own right.
In a hypothetical Justice League universe, oldschool Green Arrow and Batman are two unique personalities that each offer unique perspectives and characterizations despite the similarities in their gimmicks/powers. In a universe with Tv Green Arrow and Batman....one of them is clearly redundant.

Personally, I think oldschool Ollie is more relevant today then people realize.

 

[Johnny San]

Yes, because the only way for DC to be successful is to do it exactly like Marvel. There can be no other way. Totally brah.

When you're aiming to make a film compiling of a majority of your comic book heroes into a story, it makes a lot of sense to build some foundations for those characters so you can create interest in your future mash-up movie. I noted that was one of the things The Avengers did right, another mash-up movie.

Are you suggesting the way DC is handling things currently is a correct approach? My previous post already explains why their current plans are garbage.

 

[SoundsLikePAUSE]

This, I 100% agree, is exactly what happened.


The change isn't a progression in my eyes though. Its a *regression*. Straight up: Green Arrow in his original inception was a Batman rip off. Its just a simple fact. The thing that allowed the character to endure and grow beyond his meh origins is that as Batman got more Grim Dark, Ollie retained a cynical wit that let him be a unique character in his own right.
In a hypothetical Justice League universe, oldschool Green Arrow and Batman are two unique personalities that each offer unique perspectives and characterizations despite the similarities in their gimmicks/powers. In a universe with Tv Green Arrow and Batman....one of them is clearly redundant.

Personally, I think oldschool Ollie is more relevant today then people realize.

Maybe it is, but they have to go off what's been successful lately. Not 20 years ago. And GA's book which is a lot more dark & brooding is a huge success right now. Especially from critics. You can't blame them for wanting to make the character into a success. With your way of thinking, we'd still have Aquaman as the joke he was in Super friends.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Maybe it is, but they have to go off what's been successful lately. Not 20 years ago. And GA's book which is a lot more dark & brooding is a huge success right now. Especially from critics. You can't blame them for wanting to make the character into a success. With your way of thinking, we'd still have Aquaman as the joke he was in Super friends.

the success is largely built off of what was done in the past. Frank Miller made batman dark in the 80's and Tim Burton followed suit, cinematically. The trend, as a precedent, was set. Nolan's batman is just as somber (darker actually, in some ways). Green Arrow started off campy and was whittled down but his sarcasm and aloofness is what was drawing the crowd. He was essentially, the peter parker of the DC world (kinda...you get my drift).

We all know what happens to batman when you make him too cartoony and camp, you get fuckin Joel Shumacher's batman movies that are hot garbage. By making Green Arrow dark just makes it that much more redundant. Granted, we are in a time where the world of heroes and villains is just more somber. And I get that dark or not, some people just dig arrow more than they dig batman. And that's cool too.

re: aquaman, read the Justice series penned by Alex Ross. Hardly LOL. He just had bad media and was easy to pick on

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

You're right, they didn't build him up to be an "Ideal" or not killing being his thing. He was extremely inexperienced and did what he thought he had to do. I have no doubt this will be one of the biggest plot points of MOS2. To have him become the Superman we all want in one movie is unrealistic.

Bull. I love superman, but he doesn't exactly have the most complicated character arc. Its heroes journey 101. They didn't end with him being the ideal Superman because they didn't have time, rather it's because they didn't want to.
The bigger problem is that they even *tried* at all. Remember that whole speech Jor-El gave that was reused in the trailers ad nausseum? How we're going to "stumble and fall" but "in time we'll join (him) in the sun"? In a storytelling sense, how does that lineup with Superman's actions within the film? Why should I strive towards being like a man who would let his own father die to protect his secret identity? I'd rather be like the one who would risk everything he had if it meant saving a single human life.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Maybe it is, but they have to go off what's been successful lately. Not 20 years ago. And GA's book which is a lot more dark & brooding is a huge success right now. Especially from critics. You can't blame them for wanting to make the character into a success. With your way of thinking, we'd still have Aquaman as the joke he was in Super friends.

True, I can't blame them....but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I enjoy the progress they've made with Aquaman. I'm not someone who needs things to be like they've always been. I just think Ollie was a more interesting and unique character before they decided they needed a poor man's Batman.

 

[xQUANTUMx]

Bull. I love superman, but he doesn't exactly have the most complicated character arc. Its heroes journey 101. They didn't end with him being the ideal Superman because they didn't have time, rather it's because they didn't want to.
The bigger problem is that they even *tried* at all. Remember that whole speech Jor-El gave that was reused in the trailers ad nausseum? How we're going to "stumble and fall" but "in time we'll join (him) in the sun"? In a storytelling sense, how does that lineup with Superman's actions within the film? Why should I strive towards being like a man who would let his own father die to protect his secret identity? I'd rather be like the one who would risk everything he had if it meant saving a single human life.

I never understood that paranoia arc, I get that they are trying to reflect "modern" times, but times have not changed so much that an alien kid in kansas is not going make waves if discovered now vs 20 years ago.


edit: I think they just did to be different for the sake of being different rather than fleshing that out more. Jonathan Kent is an INTEGRAL part of superman's moral compass and upbringing and here he's just teaching Clark to be paranoid and insular.

 

[SoundsLikePAUSE]

Bull. I love superman, but he doesn't exactly have the most complicated character arc. Its heroes journey 101. They didn't end with him being the ideal Superman because they didn't have time, rather it's because they didn't want to.
The bigger problem is that they even *tried* at all. Remember that whole speech Jor-El gave that was reused in the trailers ad nausseum? How we're going to "stumble and fall" but "in time we'll join (him) in the sun"? In a storytelling sense, how does that lineup with Superman's actions within the film? Why should I strive towards being like a man who would let his own father die to protect his secret identity? I'd rather be like the one who would risk everything he had if it meant saving a single human life.

Again, I think this will all be addressed in the sequel. He didn't let his father die. His father made that decision himself and he understood why he had to do it. Honestly, I saw MOS as "Superman: Year 1". And if you've seen/read Batman Year 1, you'll know heroes make a lot of mistakes. I'm confident by the end of MOS2, he'll be the Superman everyone wants to see.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Again, I think this will all be addressed in the sequel. He didn't let his father die. His father made that decision himself and he understood why he had to do it. Honestly, I saw MOS as "Superman: Year 1". And if you've seen/read Batman Year 1, you'll know heroes make a lot of mistakes. I'm confident by the end of MOS2, he'll be the Superman everyone wants to see.

Not a chance. Too little, too late. There is literally nothing they can do in MOS2 to convince me at this point that the character they have developed is in anyway shape or form the ideal they've tried to sell him as. He just flatout isn't. They will be much better off recognizing him as the flawed character they have created him to be and embracing it for all the good and bad that comes with it. He'll never be comic book Supes....but at least he can be an entertaining variation on the Superman mythos....which is still possible.

And I'm sorry, but if you think he didn't let his father die you're just fooling yourself. Aside from the fact that he flat out states that he let his father die, his inaction speaks for itself. He *could* have saved his father, but he chose not too. I know it was at his father's request, but I don't believe for one single second that traditional supes would have followed his father's wishes there. He would have shot off faster than than a speeding bullet, gotten chastised for it, and then proceeded to set his father straight.
Ideal heroes never do that smart thing, they do the *right* thing. That's what makes them ideal heroes.

edit: I think they just did to be different for the sake of being different rather than fleshing that out more. Jonathan Kent is an INTEGRAL part of superman's moral compass and upbringing and here he's just teaching Clark to be paranoid and insular.

Agreed. And the lesson that Johnathan Kent's death in the versions of the comics where he does die (and in some cases his mother as well) is supposed to be about teaching him that despite all he can do, his powers ultimately have limits. Kent's death in the movie is the literal antithesis of that.

 

[MKF30]

No.. lol why Cyborg and not Flash or MMH?! I hope this movie is even more grim then MOS and show Victor well...let's just say how he became Cyborg lol.

Don't get me wrong, Cyborg is alright but he's NOT a core Justice Leaguer....anyone who's read DC JL over the years knows MMH>>>>Cyborg. Period.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

No.. lol why Cyborg and not Flash or MMH?! I hope this movie is even more grim then MOS and show Victor well...let's just say how he became Cyborg lol.

Don't get me wrong, Cyborg is alright but he's NOT a core Justice Leaguer....anyone who's read DC JL over the years knows MMH>>>>Cyborg. Period.

The last time I begged and pleaded for them not to exclude Martian Manhunter from a huge DC property, NRS answered my prayers.

Never again.

 

[SoundsLikePAUSE]

No.. lol why Cyborg and not Flash or MMH?! I hope this movie is even more grim then MOS and show Victor well...let's just say how he became Cyborg lol.

Don't get me wrong, Cyborg is alright but he's NOT a core Justice Leaguer....anyone who's read DC JL over the years knows MMH>>>>Cyborg. Period.

New52 brotha'. Cyborg's a founding member.

 

[Shaazzyam]

When you're aiming to make a film compiling of a majority of your comic book heroes into a story, it makes a lot of sense to build some foundations for those characters so you can create interest in your future mash-up movie. I noted that was one of the things The Avengers did right, another mash-up movie.

Are you suggesting the way DC is handling things currently is a correct approach? My previous post already explains why their current plans are garbage.

Where is Marvel's Hawkeye movie then? Black Widow's?


Not every character needs an origins movie. How tired would people be seeing 5 different superhero movies every single year?

Besides, it's not as if this is their Justice League movie. This a sequel to MoS. Who cares if they have a couple cameos.

I don't understand why people feel the need to judge something they haven't even seen a trailer for yet.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

Where is Marvel's Hawkeye movie then? Black Widow's?


Not every character needs an origins movie.

Personally I wish they had given us one.

 

[Johnny San]

Where is Marvel's Hawkeye movie then? Black Widow's?

You're implying Marvel didn't introduce most of it's characters adequately in all those movies prior to the Avengers. DC has introduced Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern in recent years. Color me impressed.

Besides, it's not as if this is their Justice League movie. This a sequel to MoS. Who cares if they have a couple cameos.

Yes, this is a sequel to Man of Steel. Why are they setting it up as a Justice League Preview movie then?

I don't understand why people feel the need to judge something they haven't even seen a trailer for yet.

Because they are making a fair judgement based off information WB has given them. By that logic, a person should be neither excited or disappointed with the current state of the movie at this point. It's what people do before a movie comes out.

 

[Yoaks]

shoulda definitley been Bruce Willis cast as Lex

noooooooooo.......

 

[Yoaks]

Man of Steel was shit.

If I had to bet, I'd say this will be worse. Just call it Justice League and be done with the "Batman/Superman" thing.

I'd rather see an Arrow movie than this. Arrow, DK Trilogy, 1989 Batman and Superman 1 and 2 are the only things DC has ever done right aside from the AMAZING cartoons.

I need to remember to get Son of Batman this weekend, speaking of the cartoons.

Don't. It sucked.

 

[Eric The Scruffy]

You're implying Marvel didn't introduce most of it's characters adequately in all those movies prior to the Avengers. DC has introduced Batman, Superman, and Green Lantern in recent years. Color me impressed.

Technically they haven't really even introduced Green Lantern since that movie is almost certainly not going to be a part of the new cinematic universe they're trying to develop, and the rumors circulating are that it won't even be Hal. So basically they're going to squeeze all the characters they can into this movie including wonderwoman and cyborg so that for Justice league they can just bring the rest in from the fold totally cold.

....you can do it that way. Probably not while doing all the characters the justice they deserve....but you can do it that way.

 

[Yoaks]

This, Jesus Christ this. to the casual fan who doesn't give a shit, its fine, but I keep thinking the producers could never get Bruce Wayne/BM into smallville and he would never make it on the small screen especially now because they are filming that pre-batman gotham show about Jim Gordon. This is the closest they get to batman. I mean, Harley makes a cameo appearance and they're talking about the league of assasins in the show,FFS.

Stephen Amell plays a dark brooding, billionaire.....arrow? Where's sarcastic, jokerster ollie? that's his shtick.

That's exactly why I'm not watching the show. Arrow is not suppose to be Batman wearing Dark Green with a bow and arrow.

 

[OG Mannimal]

I actually really like the Man of Steel movie...

 

[Decay]

Mandatory token black person confirmed

 

[Justice]

This movie is going to suck

This movie already sux.