Cyber-Sub Zero's Bombs needs a patch

[GamerBlake90]

Much of what I meant to say was already said by others, but I'll give an opinion anyway:

You obviously haven't played as Cyber Sub-Zero enough to recognize the strategy behind him: HIS ICE BOMBS DON'T NEED TO HIT THE OPPONENT! That's not their purpose, except if the target falls for them. What they are meant to do is fuck with your opponent's mind, get 'em to leave themselves open since the bombs can't be blocked. If you play Cyber Sub-Zero correctly, the bombs will get your opponent to panic and you can punish him with the right tools.

Trust me, I've played a good Cyber Sub-Zero enough times to learn what he is capable of. I am even learning to use him myself. And note that if you get reckless with Cyber Sub-Zero's bombs, you will be leaving yourself open instead if the opponent is smart. The character has a great deal of balance for both his zoning tools and his pressuring offense, so if you were to buff his Ice Bombs any further...that would be the definition of broken-ness.

I suggest leaving the character alone. He is fine the way he is. It's better to grasp a full understanding of a character before declaring a need for any sort of patches.

 

[xTac]

So let me get this straight... basically, you want:

1. bombs to freeze opponent even if he tries to jump
2. bombs to have complete priority over armored wake up attacks and freeze opponents that have any kind of armor
3. bombs to freeze opponent whiffing strings and special moves

lol ! Wait wait... thats not what i said at all. If you read my post i just said it should freeze on whiffed strings and specials and ASK what ppl think about the rest of the other situations. Apparently nobody agrees?!?! i dont know...
As i said already, i posted the video because i have seen like 3 or 4 posts around here at least from ppl saying that the bomb freeze is "random" or they dont understand how it works, so i posted the video. Thats all.

Oh wait, I just discovered an infinite bomb trap in the corner: 1, 2, 1+2, U4, close bomb... opponent can't whiff a wake up, special or normal, opponent can't jump or block to avoid being freezed. I just lock them in the corner with a dive kick or whatever. They obviously can't dash or backdash since they're in the corner with no where else to go. Bombs explodes, they freeze. I combo again and end with the same set up. Rinse, repeat. You're dead.

Well... not quite... not sure u know but U4, close bomb does not work at all in the corner.... the bomb rolls back and does not hit.... so, thats actually not even a viable example, but i get what ur saying.

Who knows what kind of silly bomb traps he could end up having. btw Does EN dive kick has armor?

Exactly, thats why i was asking for opinions.

Im not sure about the armor but i guess not. I get punished while the EX animation still clearly on... but its a long move... so i cant really say for sure. Thats actually a good suggestion too.... although i do think buffing the bombs would make it so much cooler gameplay )))

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Well... not quite... not sure u know but U4, close bomb does not work at all in the corner.... the bomb rolls back and does not hit.... so, thats actually not even a viable example, but i get what ur saying.

lol, I didn't know that. I've seen a few players do that to me in the corner. But I thought they accidently used far away bomb instead of the close one. Anyway...

About bombs, GamerBlake90 said it best: You use them to make the opponent move around and out of his zone of comfort. Doesn't matter if they hit or don't freeze the opponent. It's still usefull as a tool.


Would giving CSZ's EN dive kick armor make him too good? I don't think so. Because unlike Johnny Cage or Nightwolf, this buff would only really help CSZ in his most terrible matchups. So all it would really mean is his 3-7s and 4-6s would be like 5-5s IF he has meter. The matchup would still be bad other wise.

 

[Deathology]

Would giving CSZ's EN dive kick armor make him too good?

I could see it making the Shang Tsung vs Cyber Sub-Zero match even worse, if it could get any worse.

 

[Vulcan Hades]

lol, poor Shang. Now HE would really need something to deal with CSZ lmao.

I say make his soul steal armor breaking.

 

[Apocalypse]

So let me get this straight... basically, you want:

1. bombs to freeze opponent even if he tries to jump
2. bombs to have complete priority over armored wake up attacks and freeze opponents that have any kind of armor
3. bombs to freeze opponent whiffing strings and special moves

So basically what you're saying is you don't want the opponent to be able to avoid your bombs freezing via jumping or whiffing normals and specials. Now how am I supposed to avoid them since they're unblockable? By dashing and back dashing? Ok. Sounds fair. Let's pretend I can only avoid bombs freezing me by dashing and back dashing out of their way.

Oh wait, I just discovered an infinite bomb trap in the corner: 1, 2, 1+2, U4, close bomb... opponent can't whiff a wake up, special or normal, opponent can't jump or block to avoid being freezed. I just lock them in the corner with a dive kick or whatever. They obviously can't dash or backdash since they're in the corner with no where else to go. Bombs explodes, they freeze. I combo again and end with the same set up. Rinse, repeat. You're dead.

CSZ is already S tier. He doesn't need much. CSZ only really struggles vs characters that have air control and/or can prevent him from getting in with dive kick pressure. So Ermac, Kitana, Mileena, Kabal, Sub Zero, Kung Lao...

I guess he could use *some* help to deal with those matchups. But making those ice bombs better would be dumb and possibly make him too good. Who knows what kind of silly bomb traps he could end up having.

btw Does EN dive kick has armor? If it doesn't have armor, then maybe giving this move armor could help in the bad matchups. That would certainly be more reasonnable than buffing his ice bombs. The only other buff I could see happening is making the bombs build a little more meter. I dunno.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but the issue most people have is not that opponents can AVOID the bombs via jumping, whiffing moves, etc. The problem is that the bombs will not freeze if the opponent is doing any of those actions when you are inputting your bomb command. Basically, if you want the bomb to freeze you have to throw it out while the opponent is not doing anything and thus in a perfect position to take advantage of the overly long recovery time that CSZ must succumb to.

IMO, the recovery time of Cyber-Sub is what needs to be changed the most. The way it is now, if you throw out a bomb that has the potential to freeze, the opponent can hit you with a fast special, a fast projectile, or a teleport attack before you recover.

I agree that god-like bombs would make Cyber-Sub overpowered, but I just don't like the fact that he has a tool like this and it's fairly limited in how you can use it effectively.

 

[xTac]

Basically, if you want the bomb to freeze you have to throw it out while the opponent is not doing anything and thus in a perfect position to take advantage of the overly long recovery time that CSZ must succumb to.

Exactly!

The thing is, the best you can take out of a bomb/trap is in reality 27%, if you are lucky, because you are not gonna hit them with the bomb most of the times anyway, but in the air with the EX Ice Ball that follows it when they jump(if that even happens, and still, you have to use 1 bar of super). However, the max you can deal to a midscreen air frozen opponent is Njp, UP4, Slide (27%). As far as i know...
And thats if you make it in time, because the freeze time frame on airborne opponents is quite fast. Most of the times you wont be close enough to actually be able to land Njp and follow up.
So... its a lot of work to set that up for only 27% while using 1 bar of super. (considering it works, because there are times you will freeze the enemy but no time to actually land the 27% combo and you end up actually doing way less)

You can actually hit an air frozen opponent with 2,1,1+2 and launch them in the air if you whiiff the first 2 hits on that string and follow up from there to make more damage, but its really hard to get the distance right....

By the way, the bomb WILL freeze an opponent out of a blocked string. However, because of the animation recovery time on the bombs you cant actually make any really viable traps. The best i could make out of a blocked string was F2,2,1 xx Close Bomb followed by EX Ice Ball because the last hit on that string will push the opponent back on block, so they cant punish you right away, even with most fast pokes, D3 or D1, and you have time to throw the EX Ice Ball in there although it is strict. The opponent can only get out of this with long/mid range low attacks(such as KL roll, reptile and subzero slide, strikers batton, milena roll, etc...), armored specials or teleports such as scorpion, raiden, ermac . (someone correct me if im wrong here) So... as i said... not really an awsome trap. I mean, it works, because your opponent many times is not expecting it, but you cant repeat over and over as they will probably figure it out. Oh well... if you could, it would be fucking cheap

So basically the thing is, the bombs do have a purpose, but they could use a slight slight buff somehow. Still not sure exactly what would be balanced though.

 

[THTB]

CSZ can reaction divekick over a number of projectiles from well around 3/4 of the screen EASILY. He can also pressure like crazy. He can make you not want to attack back after his strings because divekick can stuff them. He can make you respect whatever he does after a landed divekick because he can just divekick you in the face again. His EX dive kick is safe on block vs everyone but Kung Lao. He has the EX freeze that Sub has.

He has a lot of crazy stuff. He is top tier. Even with the bomb issue.

 

[FixdSwine]

IF, CSZ had a bomb trap, it wouldn't be as nooby and easy as Cyrax's bomb trap, since Cyrax's bomb trap could easily start if you were blocking at close range, or if you got caught in his net, and his does altogether do more than 40%. I have found an baby version of the bomb trap for CSZ, but you have to hit your opponent with his up+4 then cancel into medium bomb, after that, do f+2,2,1 to push your opponent into the bomb and....thats it. No freeze, just 6% extra damage. So yeah, the bomb trap is not a viable option for CSZ, as this only does 25% damage. You cant' combo into up+4, you can't freeze them beforehand or the bombs won't come out, and the up+4 is punishable, as it has a painful recovery time.

 

[FixdSwine]

Also why in the world is CSZ teleport broken? I shouldn't be able to get hit mid-animation

 

[Vulcan Hades]

Also why in the world is CSZ teleport broken? I shouldn't be able to get hit mid-animation

All teleports can get hit during their start up animations though. I've hit many Scorpion, Smoke, Raiden and Ermac Players out of their teleport animation. Why would CSZ be the only one that can't get hit?

Plus, if CSZ had a good and fast teleport, then he wouldn't have any problem closing distance vs Ermac and Kitana. He would have 0 bad matchups making him S+ tier or something.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

I cracked up when I read Vulcan's rage response.

"So let me get this straight..."

 

[xTac]

Just found another spot where the bombs will not freeze as well.

In my last post I said the bombs WILL freeze if deployed while the opponent is blocking (getting hit or not), however, there is also an exception to that.

If the opponent is CROUCH BLOCKING the bombs will also NOT freeze if deployed while he is getting hit.

So, lets say you do F2,2,1 xx Close Bomb and he blocks standing, the bomb will freeze
Now, if you do F2,2,1 xx Close Bomb and he blocks crouching, the bomb will NOT freeze.

This is true for any string you apply, not only F2,2,1.

*Bombs will freeze if the opponent is crouch blocking without getting hit though. (from a distance, for example)

 

[Niflheim]

I'm still waiting for them to remap CSZ's medium bomb to back, forward, 3. That or change all the bomb setups to be mapped on 4. Because of his medium bomb coming out, I can't dash in with 3,3,2 or 3,4 to break ducking blocks. That's about the only patch CSZ needs, IMO.

 

[Cburnham81]

I'm still waiting for them to remap CSZ's medium bomb to back, forward, 3. That or change all the bomb setups to be mapped on 4. Because of his medium bomb coming out, I can't dash in with 3,3,2 or 3,4 to break ducking blocks. That's about the only patch CSZ needs, IMO.

Agreed! Change all the bomb commands to 4 and call it a day!

-Do I wish the bombs were more consistent when they freeze or not... Of course I do. But if they'll just fix these bombs dropping every time I dash in and hit 3.
-It would be different if two of his most viable combos didn't start with 3.

 

[FixdSwine]

Agreed! Change all the bomb commands to 4 and call it a day!

Lets see,
b,b,4 (close bomb)..ok
f,f,4 (medium bomb)...ok
b,b,4 (far bomb)....NOT ok, Conflicts with slide. Best if remapped to d,d,f,4

 

[JagoMIH]

CSZ can reaction divekick over a number of projectiles from well around 3/4 of the screen EASILY. He can also pressure like crazy. He can make you not want to attack back after his strings because divekick can stuff them. He can make you respect whatever he does after a landed divekick because he can just divekick you in the face again. His EX dive kick is safe on block vs everyone but Kung Lao. He has the EX freeze that Sub has.

He has a lot of crazy stuff. He is top tier. Even with the bomb issue.

i also like his parry i think it's real good...better than liu's or smoke's en shake imo

 

[GNG Iniquity]

i also like his parry i think it's real good...better than liu's or smoke's en shake imo

Well, the issue with his parry is, it doesn't work against projectiles. Also doesn't work on lows I beleive, though I may be wrong.

 

[Zebster]

Lets see,
b,b,4 (close bomb)..ok
f,f,4 (medium bomb)...ok
b,b,4 (far bomb)....NOT ok, Conflicts with slide. Best if remapped to d,d,f,4

switch slide to 3 and all bombs to 4. All is good.

 

[FixdSwine]

Well, the issue with his parry is, it doesn't work against projectiles. Also doesn't work on lows I beleive, though I may be wrong.

It works on low hits, but the timing has to be PERFECT. I've done it a couple of times on my friend, annoys the crap out of him.

 

[Niflheim]

switch slide to 3 and all bombs to 4. All is good.

Damn, that would be amazing. Plus it would be easier to use a slide after the 3,3,2 combo....

 

[zee]

Slide is universally mapped to bf4 for characters like Reptile, Sub-Zero and Cyber Sub-Zero. IMO the best change would be to map the middle bomb to strictly ff+3 or bf3.

 

[Sutter Pain]

The more I play csz the less I do forward bomb on accident but if it was to be changed my vote would be to this.

F, hold F+3

might just be crazy thoughts though but my 2 cents regardless.

 

[FixdSwine]

The more I play csz the less I do forward bomb on accident but if it was to be changed my vote would be to this.

F, hold F+3

might just be crazy thoughts though but my 2 cents regardless.

I think that hold for a regular special attack is a bad idea. Leave holds for unblockables.

 

[Aviados]

Fix the damn dash=>3, everything else is BS /Thread