Match-up Discussion Cyber Sub-Zero Matchup Discussion Thread

[dookieagain]

So this is a weird question, but why is Quan Chi an 8-2? I know I can slide him if he does trance, and on wakeup he's fairly free, but he wants close range as bad as I do, his safe strings are difficult to deal with, and if he gets meter he can do 40-60% guaranteed with rune trap, at which point you have to play insanely carefully because he can start it off any JIP on block. Especially since he can whiff telestomp to get in, and it is impossible to punish the whiff on reaction with CSZ's crap pokes, the risk of losing any given round to rune trap is pretty high and has been frustrating.

I know there aren't really many serious Quan players out there, but I've been training with a guy who mains Quan, and that Rune Trap feels almost as frustrating as Cyrax. Worse it works on block, and with him using whiff telestomp as transportation it's virtually impossible to stop it. Plus air to air punch to telestomp can beat divekicks, and his ultra fast uppercut makes pressuring with crossups more risky than usual.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

block strings in general are not safe against CSZ because of his reflect on reaction. i would call Quan Chi a 7-3 in CSZs favor as a good quan can do something when getting in however with reflect and CSZs speed he is death for Quan. CSZ just has a lot more tools and Reflect and Slide are made to counter quan.

 

[dookieagain]

block strings in general are not safe against CSZ because of his reflect on reaction. i would call Quan Chi a 7-3 in CSZs favor as a good quan can do something when getting in however with reflect and CSZs speed he is death for Quan. CSZ just has a lot more tools and Reflect and Slide are made to counter quan.

If by reflect you mean ice parry, sure you can ice parry when there's an opening, but the rune trap is a true blockstring off a jump in punch, there's no parrying it once he lands the initial hit on block. Same goes for his high, low, high skull string, there isn't a hole to interrupt. Plus any player who knows the CSZ matchup in going to put low pokes in the holes specifically to stop you from throwing out random ice parry.

Also if he staggers his strings at all then you're in a bad position since one baited Parry is going to cost you at least 40% whereas you need to hit with five correct parries for each baited one (8% each) to even that out. I mean sure you can pressure him well-ish, but when he can deal 45% guaranteed and a reset that at best costs you 12% more, and it's on block or even more on the off chance it hits. (The new rune trap nobody except me seems to have seen) That seems like it'd shift the matchup away from anything too extreme.

And I don't see how slide is a magic tool in this match. It's a nice way in if he whiffs a trance, but that's really it. I mean most of the time slide is a liability, a blocked slide means blowing breaker or eating a big combo, and since I'm always saving my breaker for getting one out of Rune Trap, it doesn't seem worth it for frankly mediocre damage and one crossup which he can uppercut on wakeup if he's on the ball.

 

[CaliJokerstyle]

i call all parrys reflects out of habit lol. Remember rune trap is meter dependent and he cant through out skulls and trance without being punished. Also the reflect if used well will make him think on pressure and CSZs pressure is much stronger than Quan Chi's. Also remember CSZ has an extremely fast dash so trading with Quan on skulls to dash is highly in CSZs favor due to full combo still possible. quan is just overall to slow to handle CSZ and rune trap may only get one round if that. Plus if you get quan in the corner with CSZ its over he has nothing to get out. Also it depends on if you are playing online or off. Online the lag makes quan infintely better as reaction is much harder. Offline he is just to slow. BTW slide on wakeup also hits through skulls thats why it is huge. He cannot zone CSZ at all.

 

[REO]

Against Quan Chi, just zone him to death with dive kicks. It may take a very long time to kill him this way, but it's the safest and most effective way to do it. Don't get too greedy with going for jump-ins and try not to drift off away from dive kick zoning because then that's when you will give him options to counter. You can also interrupt his B+3,1+2 string with ice parry, this is good because it will knock him away from you and you can continue zoning him with dive kicks.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I played lord of the fly's NW tonight w Csz and recorded it - I'll post the videos here tomorrow and I think I agree nw and CSZ are 5-5

Things I would like in the patch
Bomb becomes 4
Ex dive kick armor
Normal pokes instead of the current turd pokes

D3 is his current best because he lowers his hit box and fastest but this isn't saying much

Also for reasons stated:
KABAL is 7-3 on CSZ
Kano is 5-5 w CSZ
Reptile is 6-4 IMO in his favor maybe more

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

[video=youtube_share;_q2zhL3FgcU]http://youtu.be/_q2zhL3FgcU[/video]

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Ok im ready to enter heavy discussion about this matchup everyone of you see as 8-2 C SUB/Shang

I couldnt disagree anymore and it pains me to see this.

Against an elite shang and someone who uses c sub really this is not 8-2 - the idea here that c sub can dive kick his zoning....ok but here's the problem you miss one dive kick it's 40% unbreakable fireball combo you get in return for you ...what 8% dive kick risk?

If shang sees c sub hit the air he'll do instant close fireball to begin this so it becomes a 50/50 game for c sub. Does he jump to fake a far dive into close dive into slide? risk far dive kick?

I think its 5-5 and ill accept the criticism on this because ive played the best shang (detroit) and while its been nothing but online and i hate judging anythin from online to the fullest, i just cant see this being 8-2 based off this mentality.

I think you guys havent engaged w a top shang yet cause my c sub isnt a joke and i had a hella time w detroits shang

 

[UsedForGlue]

I agree with everything you said. I've been playing some good Mileena and Kitana players and it's living HELL for CSZ but not as bad as Kabal. Kitana seems 7-3, and Mileena is like 6.5-3.5. CSZ has a really tough time punishing her enhanced teleport drop thanks to his horrid 10 frame D+1, the window is VERY tight so she can abuse it like no tomorrow against him with all the meter she builds. You have to anticipate it in advance and interrupt the second part of the enhanced teleport with a parry, but the window is very small.


Right now I feel CSZ needs to be tweaked in a redesign stance. Nerf his parry or whatever and give him normal recovery for his pokes. His slide should also go under projectiles and he could use armor on the enhanced version like how they are doing for Sub-Zero. This would help in some tough match-ups like where you can't slide under Kitana instant air fans, and for Kabal and others. His ice bombs should be mapped onto another attack button like someone mentioned, 4 would work best. They just conflict with his playstyle currently and get in the way too much. He's a unique character with potential but has a lot of contradicting properties.

Agreed again man.

Paulo Garcia said last night on stream that no moves will ever get remapped, that will never happen, so bombs at and slide at will always be. That is something that, no matter how wrong that is, we have to deal with that as a fact from now.

He needs his Parry cooled down as pokes beat it out right and he can't counter poke because his pokes have been compensated for.

Paulo Garcia also said last night that there are too many possible traps with Cyber for the bombs to be allowed to freeze, which I think most people who really know how to use CSZ will not agree entirely with that, and even if there were traps, especially with , they could easily remove that if they so wished, they would no more chance of that than what Cyrax already has, and he can net from his bomb resets, but that is allowed for Cyrax and not CSZ, and Paulo said that will NEVER change, even though they added an ON/OFF switch for it in the last patch... Although, I will state that, I never asked any of questions regarding the bombs being remapped, or freezing. But I was told to stop asking these questions.

So, considering that they are not going to change the bomb's freezing properties, Cyber should be allowed to throw bombs after all ice ball combos, as the bombs will never freeze if they connnect in a trap and we already have an into bomb trap, so why can't we do that from other strings such as for example? Huge contradiction.

His teleport is serves almost no purpose and is incredibly easy to punish, and can only be used as an escape from a corner if the opponent is caught in a forward dash or jump and you happen to (Luckily) input the teleport at the exact same time.

He can't dash back into or forward into , one of only two characters that can't do this simple must have command, especially in CSZ's case (Mileena being the other Character, but she has that insane to compensate)

And when I tried asking Paulo Garcia I got shit from everyone and Paulo Garcia for asking ''the same questions that have already been answered', But I don't see how any of these questions I have posed have been answered specifically, and all I ask is some response with out generalities...Now, do you think I would ask these questions If I had got replies or had the competently answered already? Of course not.

And PIG, you were there on the steam at the time when this happened, do any of these questions specifically sound like questions that been answered before?

 

[UsedForGlue]

Ok im ready to enter heavy discussion about this matchup everyone of you see as 8-2 C SUB/Shang

I couldnt disagree anymore and it pains me to see this.

Against an elite shang and someone who uses c sub really this is not 8-2 - the idea here that c sub can dive kick his zoning....ok but here's the problem you miss one dive kick it's 40% unbreakable fireball combo you get in return for you ...what 8% dive kick risk?

If shang sees c sub hit the air he'll do instant close fireball to begin this so it becomes a 50/50 game for c sub. Does he jump to fake a far dive into close dive into slide? risk far dive kick?

I think its 5-5 and ill accept the criticism on this because ive played the best shang (detroit) and while its been nothing but online and i hate judging anythin from online to the fullest, i just cant see this being 8-2 based off this mentality.

I think you guys havent engaged w a top shang yet cause my c sub isnt a joke and i had a hella time w detroits shang

I have the same problem with people thinking that the Shang match up is impossible against Cyber Sub.

Shang's close ground skull is one of the hardest things to break through for CSZ, but that's only in my opinion, I don't know what anyone else would think.

Anyway, here is me playing against a fantastic Cage, I do allot of things differently now. But I am trying not to get to close to cage, and just take what I can and get out.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Agreed again man.

Paulo Garcia said last night on stream that no moves will ever get remapped, that will never happen, so bombs at and slide at will always be. That is something that, no matter how wrong that is, we have to deal with that as a fact from now.

He needs his Parry cooled down as pokes beat it out right and he can't counter poke because his pokes have been compensated for.

Paulo Garcia also said last night that there are too many possible traps with Cyber for the bombs to be allowed to freeze, which I think most people who really know how to use CSZ will not agree entirely with that, and even if there were traps, especially with , they could easily remove that if they so wished, they would no more chance of that than what Cyrax already has, and he can net from his bomb resets, but that is allowed for Cyrax and not CSZ, and Paulo said that will NEVER change, even though they added an ON/OFF switch for it in the last patch... Although, I will state that, I never asked any of questions regarding the bombs being remapped, or freezing. But I was told to stop asking these questions.

So, considering that they are not going to change the bomb's freezing properties, Cyber should be allowed to throw bombs after all ice ball combos, as the bombs will never freeze if they connnect in a trap and we already have an into bomb trap, so why can't we do that from other strings such as for example? Huge contradiction.

His teleport is serves almost no purpose and is incredibly easy to punish, and can only be used as an escape from a corner if the opponent is caught in a forward dash or jump and you happen to (Luckily) input the teleport at the exact same time.

He can't dash back into or forward into , one of only two characters that can't do this simple must have command, especially in CSZ's case (Mileena being the other Character, but she has that insane to compensate)

And when I tried asking Paulo Garcia I got shit from everyone and Paulo Garcia for asking ''the same questions that have already been answered', But I don't see how any of these questions I have posed have been answered specifically, and all I ask is some response with out generalities...Now, do you think I would ask these questions If I had got replies or had the competently answered already? Of course not.

And PIG, you were there on the steam at the time when this happened, do any of these questions specifically sound like questions that been answered before?

Yea as ive said in all the CSZ threads what Paulo meant by that statement is he answered all CSZ questions and stopped all of them by answering my original question.

pig: "Paulo what if any changes is CSZ getting"

paulo: NOTHING

theres nothing else to talk about here after paulo said this, they feel very strongly about not changing anything w csz.

 

[sumkindofdemon]

I have the same problem with people thinking that the Shang match up is impossible against Cyber Sub.

Shang's close ground skull is one of the hardest things to break through for CSZ, but that's only in my opinion, I don't know what anyone else would think.

Anyway, here is me playing against a fantastic Cage, I do allot of things differently now. But I am trying not to get to close to cage, and just take what I can and get out.

nice vid used really well played against he jc

 

[S1LENT1]

Hey guys, we are covering Cyber Sub on the STBL show this week. Post ur questions here to be covered on the show... http://www.mortalkombatunited.com/showthread.php?9657-**WEEK-19**-STBL-Show-questions-Thread!!

 

[salvificblood]

Can somebody explain to me why the Cyber Sub, Jade matchup is only seen as 6-4. This should be more of a 7-3, in my opinion. Jade's projectiles get destroyed by the divekick because of how slow they are, and literally everything she does offensively, besides ex glow, can be parried on reaction.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Jade is bad Sal... just freaking bad.
I want to know if you guys still feel that CSZ vs Sub Zero is still in Subs Favor. I do but I want to hear what you guys think. Where does CSZ shine in the matchup?

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Can somebody explain to me why the Cyber Sub, Jade matchup is only seen as 6-4. This should be more of a 7-3, in my opinion. Jade's projectiles get destroyed by the divekick because of how slow they are, and literally everything she does offensively, besides ex glow, can be parried on reaction.

It's hard for me to label 7-3 for any MU in the game but it's a strong 6-4

Jade is bad Sal... just freaking bad.
I want to know if you guys still feel that CSZ vs Sub Zero is still in Subs Favor. I do but I want to hear what you guys think. Where does CSZ shine in the matchup?

If you play sub CORRECTLY this is 7-3 sub IMO

What can CSZ do? Sub can hide behind clones all day and mix up w ex clone to screw up your timing for counting it down

Also, ex ice lasts longer than csz's, armor on slide, CSz ice is slower than 5th grade

I plan on playing Tom's sub and will record it at NEC - we will show u why, also sub zero has no answer for exiting corner traps when playing smart subs. Place clone down, step back 2-3 steps, what can u do?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

It's hard for me to label 7-3 for any MU in the game but it's a strong 6-4



If you play sub CORRECTLY this is 7-3 sub IMO

What can CSZ do? Sub can hide behind clones all day and mix up w ex clone to screw up your timing for counting it down

Also, ex ice lasts longer than csz's, armor on slide, CSz ice is slower than 5th grade

I plan on playing Tom's sub and will record it at NEC - we will show u why, also sub zero has no answer for exiting corner traps when playing smart subs. Place clone down, step back 2-3 steps, what can u do?

Thank you sir. I thought maybe csz bombs could change the matchup a bit... but when I think about it... Unless CSZ jumps... i'm looking to slide it on reaction. Do you plan on using CSZ in this matchup in the tourney or will you flip to Mileena?

One more question, do you feel the matchup changes if CSZ gets the life lead... say you make a good early read and land a 40% combo. To me it seems like that is your ONLY option to win that matchup.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Thank you sir. I thought maybe csz bombs could change the matchup a bit... but when I think about it... Unless CSZ jumps... i'm looking to slide it on reaction. Do you plan on using CSZ in this matchup in the tourney or will you flip to Mileena?

One more question, do you feel the matchup changes if CSZ gets the life lead... say you make a good early read and land a 40% combo. To me it seems like that is your ONLY option to win that matchup.

We should play and I can show u some things, do u use sub or CSz?

I will use CSz against every sub zero in the world except Tom and chaostheory (doomsdaychaos on xbl)

But as far as NEC I have another character, not mileena

 

[NYCj360]

What's everyone's take on the csz/kitana matchup?

Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio using Tapatalk

 

[Altaire]

What's everyone's take on the csz/kitana matchup?

Sent from my HTC Sensation XE with Beats Audio using Tapatalk

I think it's still pretty difficult, but I found one piece of tech that might make it a little more doable. I don't think this matchup will ever be 5-5, but if my idea pans out, I can at least turn a 7-3 into a 6-4. I'm going to try this out with some of the big Kitana players after the tournament tomorrow to test just how viable it is. It's not going to make her fans any less of a pain in the ass, but if nothing else, it helps him deal with her D1 pressure. I spoke to 16 Bit about it, and he's a tad skeptical, but he said it might work. I guess we'll find out this weekend.

I will say this much: If Cyber Sub does knock down Kitana, he can set up his bombs for free, because Kitana can't do a damn thing to him on wakeup from quarterscreen distance or greater. If nothing else, he has that going for him. Provided we can find a way to actually GET IN and knock her down, this matchup might just be bearable.

 

[NYCj360]

I think it's still pretty difficult, but I found one piece of tech that might make it a little more doable. I don't think this matchup will ever be 5-5, but if my idea pans out, I can at least turn a 7-3 into a 6-4. I'm going to try this out with some of the big Kitana players after the tournament tomorrow to test just how viable it is. It's not going to make her fans any less of a pain in the ass, but if nothing else, it helps him deal with her D1 pressure. I spoke to 16 Bit about it, and he's a tad skeptical, but he said it might work. I guess we'll find out this weekend.

I will say this much: If Cyber Sub does knock down Kitana, he can set up his bombs for free, because Kitana can't do a damn thing to him on wakeup from quarterscreen distance or greater. If nothing else, he has that going for him. Provided we can find a way to actually GET IN and knock her down, this matchup might just be bearable.

Im starting to believe that this matchup is 5-5. After playing long sets with CD im finding more and more ways to beat out kitana even upclose. She is not as scary as she used to be. And there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING THAT SHE CAN DO ON WAKE UP TO HIM UP CLOSE.

 

[GGA HAN]

How does the last patch effect Cyber's matchups, given the wake-up attack buff? I used to use parry against all sorts of wakeups, but it doesnt work that well seemingly anymore. Any other matchups effected? I think Liu Kang def got worse for CSZ...

HAN

 

[GuamoKun]

Can anyone elaborate on why the Ermac match up is 6-4?

On CSZ's favor, his 1 is 9 frames while any of Ermac's moves besides d+3 are at least 10 frames.

From full screen it is somewhat easy to try to play mind games with his bombs. The only thing Ermac can do is risk eating a bomb by trying to go for a TKP, risk a blocked teleport, or throwing a projectile that is blockable from full screen.

However,

Ermac can heavily punish the dive kick with a +30% combo. So you have to rely on zoning with CSZ I think.

I have some success with trying to zone with bombs and forcing players to make mistakes but it doesn't feel like this match up is in CSZ's favor.

I played some sets against Krayzie's Ermac and I tried to zone Ermac out and some of the matches resulted in time outs. I feel this match is 4-6 in Ermac's favor if playing a rush down CSZ, MAYBE 5-5 when playing a zoning CSZ. Thoughts?

 

[Gilbagz]

Kung Lao

Can anyone help me with the Kung Lao match up, I get absolutely annihilated by Kung Lao
Spin shuts down the dive kick/jip 50-50
and he can use it in between by 2,1 repeat pressure to mess up my pressure game (I realise that its probably cuz i didnt establish that i was going to finish the string first, but the threat of the spin makes me hesitant my 2,1 pressure. Maybe im just being stupid)
i only played two games so i wasnt really able to adjust much, but i got killed hard in both games.
His dive kick beats mine cuz of his trajectory, and his spin screws up a lot of my game. What is the general idea for this match up?
Should I use 3,3,2 and 3,4 strings instead? Should I jump in and teleport mid jump to bait his spin and punish? Or should i just try to force him to move with ice bombs? Im so lost.
Thanks in advance

 

[Flagg]

How does the last patch effect Cyber's matchups, given the wake-up attack buff? I used to use parry against all sorts of wakeups, but it doesnt work that well seemingly anymore. Any other matchups effected? I think Liu Kang def got worse for CSZ...

HAN

They changed wakeup moves post patch, and now some characters have moves that can't be stopped by the parry, like Sonyas leg grab and Sektors uppercut for example. Im sure before only a low attack could beat it but that has changed since the last patch.

[MENTION=5620]Gilbagz[/MENTION], from personal experience I would say that Kung Lao is one of CSZ harder match ups. Only divekick if he throws a hat. Bait out spins and punish hard (11 iceblast, then combo of your choice). Also, if he teleports, ice parry will pretty much stop KL's teleport attacks. Throw out bombs to keep him moving...a lot of KL's will either teleport or divekick to avoid the bombs, so bait and punish accordingly. If you're fighting a KL that likes his ex spin attack on wakeup, an iceparry will stop this. But don't rely on the parry too much as people will see what you are doing.