Match-up Discussion Cyber Sub-Zero Matchup Discussion Thread

[Konqrr]

I realize that there might be a matchup thread already in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss matchups to make the Matchup Chart as accurate as possible.

The Matchup Chart thread:
http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?3075-Mortal-Kombat-(2011)-Matchup-Chart

When you discuss or list what you think the matchups are, please do so in alphabetical order. Also, they should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current Matchup Chart for Cyber Sub-Zero is as follows:
5-5 vs Baraka
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
5-5 vs Kabal
4-6 vs Kano
xxx vs Kenshi
4-6 vs Kitana
5-5 vs Kung Lao
6-4 vs Liu Kang
4-6 vs Mileena
5-5 vs Nightwolf
6-4 vs Noob Saibot
8-2 vs Quan Chi
4-6 vs Raiden
xxx vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
7-3 vs Shang Tsung
7-3 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
6-4 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero

Agree? Disagree? DISCUSS!

 

[The_Riddler]

Looks very solid. There are only 3 that I disagree with. I think Scorpion is 6-4 in Cyber Sub's favor, Kano is 5-5, and Kabal is 4-6 in Kabal's favor. Also, if we are using decimals I think Raiden is 4.5-5.5 rather than 4-6.

 

[Sao87]

Looks pretty good to me. I have a harder time with Johnny Cage then I do with Kano. His ice parry does a lot to slow down Cages knee pressure.

Watch our tournament stream this Wednesday. Morty is running CSZ with Noob as his back up.

 

[MK Peanuts]

Looks pretty good to me. I have a harder time with Johnny Cage then I do with Kano. His ice parry does a lot to slow down Cages knee pressure.

Watch our tournament stream this Wednesday. Morty is running CSZ with Noob as his back up.

What's the link to the stream?

 

[JacopeX]

I disagree with the Cyber Sub zero match up. I see it pretty even as well. 5-5 or maybe even 5.5/4.5. All Liu Kang needs to do is keep him off by parrying the dive kick and doing low fireballs to keep subz from sliding so zoning is no problem as a dive kick would give Liu Kang enough time to recover and do a parry. At close range, a crucial mistake is being caught in the ice parry. What makes this easier than the sub zero match up is the fact that cyber sub zero does not have an ice clone to keep Liu Kang away without meter.

Anyone care to elaborate further. I may be wrong.

 

[REO]

I disagree with Ermac, Kabal, and Kung Lao match-ups.

Ermac is more of a 5-5. You're forced to play very cautious at mid-screen and try to space out dive kicks for chip. He can kinda go wreckless with the jump-ins since you will be on the defensive most of the time, and he also wins the air to air by a large amount of damage. You have to catch a knockdown and then you can abuse his weakness on wake-up. Overall, he's difficult to open and knockdown, but once you do he breaks down pretty easily.


Kabal is definitely CSZ's worst match-up, I'd say it's 6.5-3.5. Kabal totally dominates the air and controls the pace of the match. Your best bet is to patiently approach him until he is walled and then carefully make a move. He will have a ton of meter by this time to spare on his enhanced spin which can blow through your rushdown and cross-ups. Using slide to punish his iAFB is also very risky since it can't be done on reaction but on anticipation due to their recovery. You have to really outplay and cause the Kabal player to make countless mistakes in order to win.


Kung Lao beats CSZ 6-4. All he needs to do is abuse his F+3 roll to get in and pressure the shit out of CSZ until you're forced to throw out parries. Keep in mind the parry does 8% and KL can easily get more than that through chip when he's in. Spin beats nearly all jump-in / cross-up attempts and just makes you want to stay away from him with jump back -> dive kicks. The problem with this tactic is once you're walled, you're gonna have a hell of a time getting out. To sum it up, KL just beats CSZ at going punch-for-punch which is his biggest strength.

 

[RoGE]

I disagree with Ermac, Kabal, and Kung Lao match-ups.

Ermac is more of a 5-5. You're forced to play very cautious at mid-screen and try to space out dive kicks for chip. He can kinda go wreckless with the jump-ins since you will be on the defensive most of the time, and he also wins the air to air by a large amount of damage. You have to catch a knockdown and then you can abuse his weakness on wake-up. Overall, he's difficult to open and knockdown, but once you do he breaks down pretty easily.




Kabal is definitely CSZ's worst match-up, I'd say it's 6.5-3.5. Kabal totally dominates the air and controls the pace of the match. Your best bet is to patiently approach him until he is walled and then carefully make a move. He will have a ton of meter by this time to spare on his enhanced spin which can blow through your rushdown and cross-ups. Using slide to punish his iAFB is also very risky since it can't be done on reaction but on anticipation due to their recovery. You have to really outplay and cause the Kabal player to make countless mistakes in order to win.


Kung Lao beats CSZ 6-4. All he needs to do is abuse his F+3 roll to get in and pressure the shit out of CSZ until you're forced to throw out parries. Keep in mind the parry does 8% and KL can easily get more than that through chip when he's in. Spin beats nearly all jump-in / cross-up attempts and just makes you want to stay away from him with jump back -> dive kicks. The problem with this tactic is once you're walled, you're gonna have a hell of a time getting out. To sum it up, KL just beats CSZ at going punch-for-punch which is his biggest strength.

Very good and insightful post Reo, there should be more posts like this. As a CSZ main this was very helpful.

 

[REO]

Kano should be 5.5-4.5 in his favor instead of 6-4. It's very close to even but what gives Kano the slight edge in this match-up is CSZ has no real way to punish up ball so Kano can abuse it like crazy against him. On wake-up you always gotta give Kano room to get up and try to bait him into whiffing the up ball and then whiff punishing, it's a counterproductive strategy for CSZ but that's what he's gotta do. Kano could always just catch on and just wake up without doing nothing, when he starts doing this, dash in and try to apply some pressure but be aware he could still up ball at any random moment.


Liu Kang feels more of a 5-5. He has air control with iAFB which stops your dive kick pressure and forces you to play grounded with slides. CSZ has a tougher time poking out of his pressure strings like F+1,2 and B+3,1,2 since he has horrible pokes (d+1 has 10 frames of start up) so you have to rely on parrying or jumping out in these circumstances. On knockdown Liu Kang is very vulnerable so rush the crap out of him and work on getting him against the wall.

Very good and insightful post Reo, there should be more posts like this. As a CSZ main this was very helpful.

No problem.

 

[REO]

So where are all the CSZ players? There's like a 1,000 Sub-Zero players but it seems like there's no more than 10 CSZ players judging by the activity of strategy discussion going on in this forum.

 

[Sentry_Gun]

So where are all the CSZ players? There's like a 1,000 Sub-Zero players but it seems like there's no more than 10 CSZ players judging by the activity of strategy discussion going on in this forum.

There's a lot of Sub Zero players because of Tom Brady. There isn't a lot of high level CSZ players, no pro is really the "Face" of CSZ, maybe you should be.

 

[Killphil]

Csub is my main but I feel as though I've hit a brick wall with him. I'll go over everything in his discussion threads again. I feel like there's nothing I can really add to this discussion match up wise though.

 

[Creepy00]

There's a lot of Sub Zero players because of Tom Brady. There isn't a lot of high level CSZ players, no pro is really the "Face" of CSZ, maybe you should be.

Banana Ken plays CSZ and you are wrong about there is alot sub players cause of tom. Most of us play subzero since release or forever without knowing who was tom brady.

 

[JennyCage]

So where are all the CSZ players? There's like a 1,000 Sub-Zero players but it seems like there's no more than 10 CSZ players judging by the activity of strategy discussion going on in this forum.

We're still here. I don't main Cyber with the dedication that I used to since my crew of friends has a lot of Kabals, JCs, Laos and Ermacs. When Cyber has bad matchups they're really bad, especially Kabal. That matchup is 3-7 in Kabal's favour in my experience, especially versus good Kabals. Mid-bomb being awkwardly mapped doesn't help either. I think if it were remapped it might broaden the appeal of Cyber to some people since he would be able to pressure better/easier. He's still a great character with a lot of tools and mixup, though. If someone had success with him at some high profile streamed tournaments I think more people would pick him up. Sorta like what you did for Mileena ("what, Mileena can be good?").

 

[Creepy00]

So where are all the CSZ players? There's like a 1,000 Sub-Zero players but it seems like there's no more than 10 CSZ players judging by the activity of strategy discussion going on in this forum.

Well same goes with JC, and people barely comment or rarely. It is the interaction between players that counts. Look Jade forum, people barely commented and now there is more attention, why? Cause they decided to contribute as much they can.

 

[Sentry_Gun]

Banana Ken plays CSZ and you are wrong about there is alot sub players cause of tom. Most of us play subzero since release or forever without knowing who was tom brady.

A lot of people play Sub Zero because of Tom Brady, I'm not wrong about that. Banana Ken isn't really a high level MK player, so I don't associate him with CSZ.

 

[SWBeta]

Why do we as a community need a "face" for a character? Stop worrying about irrelevant things and focus on what actually matters-- improving your game.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk

 

[dookieagain]

Honestly I just switched my main from Stryker to CSZ. I'm slowly working my way up the tier list, but it's hard to play any of the characters who can be counter picked harshly, especially when there are guys like Kung Lao who have no weaknesses. Plus CSZ is basically a rushdown monster, but not as straightforward as Cage, so he gets overlooked. Kind of the same reason Sonya does. Everyone I know who likes rushdown has gone with the hybrid rushdown/zoning power of the Shaolin or the focused frametraps of Cage. The secondary rushdown characters like CSZ and Sonya kinda get overlooked.

 

[RampaginDragon]

Honestly I just switched my main from Stryker to CSZ. I'm slowly working my way up the tier list, but it's hard to play any of the characters who can be counter picked harshly, especially when there are guys like Kung Lao who have no weaknesses. Plus CSZ is basically a rushdown monster, but not as straightforward as Cage, so he gets overlooked. Kind of the same reason Sonya does. Everyone I know who likes rushdown has gone with the hybrid rushdown/zoning power of the Shaolin or the focused frametraps of Cage. The secondary rushdown characters like CSZ and Sonya kinda get overlooked.

I have not even thought of Sonya, I main CSZ and am always looking at broadining my charecter selection. I have only played with one good Sonya ever and never really thought about using her. Do you think CSZ players would take to her easily?

 

[dookieagain]

I have not even thought of Sonya, I main CSZ and am always looking at broadining my charecter selection. I have only played with one good Sonya ever and never really thought about using her. Do you think CSZ players would take to her easily?

Well I mean she's also rushdown oriented with a divekick but the way she generates pressure is a bit different. Her combos are trickier since she has stances. But I put her in the second tier of rushdown behind Cage and the Shaolin boys, which is also where CSZ sits. So I see her as more connected via concept than playstyle. She's fun though.

Watch some Wonder Chef matches and you'll get a feel for her.

 

[REO]

There's a lot of Sub Zero players because of Tom Brady. There isn't a lot of high level CSZ players, no pro is really the "Face" of CSZ, maybe you should be.

I guess that is somewhat true, and with the rumors of the insane buffs Sub-Zero is getting, I wouldn't be surprised if he's top 3 again like he was in 1.0 which will cause more people to flock to him. I just really can't stand the negative edge with this character, it feels like I have to play an awkward way (which hinders his ability in the longrun) because of it. But I am giving CSZ another go with my hitbox which should be arriving soon. I also hope CSZ is getting something in the patch, since his human form is being buffed who I consider to be better than CSZ overall.

We're still here. I don't main Cyber with the dedication that I used to since my crew of friends has a lot of Kabals, JCs, Laos and Ermacs. When Cyber has bad matchups they're really bad, especially Kabal. That matchup is 3-7 in Kabal's favour in my experience, especially versus good Kabals. Mid-bomb being awkwardly mapped doesn't help either. I think if it were remapped it might broaden the appeal of Cyber to some people since he would be able to pressure better/easier. He's still a great character with a lot of tools and mixup, though. If someone had success with him at some high profile streamed tournaments I think more people would pick him up. Sorta like what you did for Mileena ("what, Mileena can be good?").

You're right, CSZ does have some pretty bad match-ups that I'm probably being too generous on. Everything just needs to be broken down and discussed more.

Well same goes with JC, and people barely comment or rarely. It is the interaction between players that counts. Look Jade forum, people barely commented and now there is more attention, why? Cause they decided to contribute as much they can.

We really do need more players contributing. I feel like I've hit a brick wall in certain match-ups and have tried thinking of every way to approach the issue and there's nothing you can really do besides the same repetitve thing.

Honestly I just switched my main from Stryker to CSZ. I'm slowly working my way up the tier list, but it's hard to play any of the characters who can be counter picked harshly, especially when there are guys like Kung Lao who have no weaknesses. Plus CSZ is basically a rushdown monster, but not as straightforward as Cage, so he gets overlooked. Kind of the same reason Sonya does. Everyone I know who likes rushdown has gone with the hybrid rushdown/zoning power of the Shaolin or the focused frametraps of Cage. The secondary rushdown characters like CSZ and Sonya kinda get overlooked.

CSZ is very unique and has to be played differently, I'll give him that. He's the only character in the game in where all his pokes are nearly useless and aren't used. I mean his D+4 has sweep-like recovery, d+1 has 10 frames of start up and D+3 has cooldown like D+1. I think they sorta intended him be like this to force you into using his parry. But yeah, if you think about it there really isn't a reason to use CSZ in tournament settings when there are characters that do the job better and more effective like Kung Lao and JC.

 

[RampaginDragon]

Watch some Wonder Chef matches and you'll get a feel for her.

Do I find those on youtube or here??

 

[dookieagain]

CSZ is very unique and has to be played differently, I'll give him that. He's the only character in the game in where all his pokes are nearly useless and aren't used. I mean his D+4 has sweep-like recovery, d+1 has 10 frames of start up and D+3 has cooldown like D+1. I think they sorta intended him be like this to force you into using his parry. But yeah, if you think about it there really isn't a reason to use CSZ in tournament settings when there are characters that do the job better and more effective like Kung Lao and JC.

Yeah I love his aesthetics and his design in general, but he has some real issues due to this design decision. I love his parry, it's a great tool, but it leaves some of his lopsided matchups even worse. While it is good for stopping pressure, especially from the likes of Liu Kang and for baiting wakeups and blowing a meter on EX when you're cornered can be a wonderful way to change the momentum of the match, the design of the parry combined with his pokes causes his game to have a hole with characters who hold their offense together with pokes.

For instance once of my main practice partners is a Kitana player, and when pressuring he'll do strings of d+1 and d+4 if you try to jump out of the string he'll do a d+1 into fan and you'll eat a lot of damage, so you're forced to stay in. While a lot of characters can throw their own d+1 or a d+3 to break this up, Cyber Sub is really stuck. Worse because parry is beaten by low pokes, your main GTFO option is reduced to nothing if he happened to do the d+4. With Mileena this gets even worse (As I'm sure you know better than anyone)

This is especially annoying when you look at things like Spin, and upkick, which eat pokes and throws. Upkick is even lower risk than parry, which if baited guarantees a full combo from a competent player whereas JC beats pokes, throws, and doesn't carry the risk of costing you 40% health. Spin. . . well spin is spin.

So basically in matchups where someone can lock CSZ down and get air control it's brutal. And while I enjoy his gimmicks and his style, if I were in a situation where I hoped to win majors, I just feel like he has matchups that would cost him. Luckily I'm in the intermediate can win locals, doesn't place at majors phase, so he fits me fine.

Do I find those on youtube or here??

Youtube, there were some on the front page recently as well.

 

[REO]

Yeah I love his aesthetics and his design in general, but he has some real issues due to this design decision. I love his parry, it's a great tool, but it leaves some of his lopsided matchups even worse. While it is good for stopping pressure, especially from the likes of Liu Kang and for baiting wakeups and blowing a meter on EX when you're cornered can be a wonderful way to change the momentum of the match, the design of the parry combined with his pokes causes his game to have a hole with characters who hold their offense together with pokes.

For instance once of my main practice partners is a Kitana player, and when pressuring he'll do strings of d+1 and d+4 if you try to jump out of the string he'll do a d+1 into fan and you'll eat a lot of damage, so you're forced to stay in. While a lot of characters can throw their own d+1 or a d+3 to break this up, Cyber Sub is really stuck. Worse because parry is beaten by low pokes, your main GTFO option is reduced to nothing if he happened to do the d+4. With Mileena this gets even worse (As I'm sure you know better than anyone)

This is especially annoying when you look at things like Spin, and upkick, which eat pokes and throws. Upkick is even lower risk than parry, which if baited guarantees a full combo from a competent player whereas JC beats pokes, throws, and doesn't carry the risk of costing you 40% health. Spin. . . well spin is spin.

So basically in matchups where someone can lock CSZ down and get air control it's brutal. And while I enjoy his gimmicks and his style, if I were in a situation where I hoped to win majors, I just feel like he has matchups that would cost him. Luckily I'm in the intermediate can win locals, doesn't place at majors phase, so he fits me fine.

I agree with everything you said. I've been playing some good Mileena and Kitana players and it's living HELL for CSZ but not as bad as Kabal. Kitana seems 7-3, and Mileena is like 6.5-3.5. CSZ has a really tough time punishing her enhanced teleport drop thanks to his horrid 10 frame D+1, the window is VERY tight so she can abuse it like no tomorrow against him with all the meter she builds. You have to anticipate it in advance and interrupt the second part of the enhanced teleport with a parry, but the window is very small.


Right now I feel CSZ needs to be tweaked in a redesign stance. Nerf his parry or whatever and give him normal recovery for his pokes. His slide should also go under projectiles and he could use armor on the enhanced version like how they are doing for Sub-Zero. This would help in some tough match-ups like where you can't slide under Kitana instant air fans, and for Kabal and others. His ice bombs should be mapped onto another attack button like someone mentioned, 4 would work best. They just conflict with his playstyle currently and get in the way too much. He's a unique character with potential but has a lot of contradicting properties.

 

[SWBeta]

Making EX Teleport have armor frames could also help with his ability to get characters off of him.

 

[Error]

Making EX Teleport have armor frames could also help with his ability to get characters off of him.

If he had the same teleport as Cyrax in terms of vulnerability that would be awesome.