CSZ Problem Match Up Guide

[Robotic]

the strat of eating the 4 in 214 is a bad idea for csz because you cant afford to keep eating it. you lose 11% and get knocked away to a place where you cant ever get back in lol. how many 4s can you afford to eat anyway? lees then cage can eat when he tries to ex nut punch out of the string. do you know how many 11% 4's cage can afford to eat in this match? 0-2 TOPS per round. its no different for csz, you cant start eating 3,4, or 5 string enders per round.

I love it when you show up with quality. I can't be the only one who missed this.

 

[NYCj360]

can someone breakdown what makes kitana vs csz a bad matchup?

 

[Tom Brady]

can someone breakdown what makes kitana vs csz a bad matchup?

quality #2.. air control, and she has it with damage. csz's best mix up is jump in or dive kick, when you totally remove that mix up like kabal and sz do, you get terrible match ups. while kitana doesnt TOTALLY remove csz's best mix up, she does a pretty good job of REALLY hurting him when she does.


finding csz's best and worst match ups are easy. look for the 2 qualifications to beat him.

1. be able to punish the safer dive kick
2. have air control

if you have one of the two tools then you can fight him, the degree of how well you fight him depends on which of the two options do you have.

if you only have #1 - while you can punish the dive kick, how hard you punish it is what really matters. even if you do punish it, CSZ still has a mix up of jump in punch or dive kick.

if you only have #2 - well this is a pain is CSZ's ass. air control is his biggest weakness especially when you can get big damage off of your air control.

if you have both #1 and #2 - this is a motherfucker for CSZ. his best mix up is almost unusable and even when he FINALLY gets a jump in/dive kick mix up chance, he still gets the dive kick punished.

if a character has neither #1 or #2 - this is a GREAT match for CSZ, he can come in when he wants and how he wants and there is little to nothing that you can do about.

 

[UsedForGlue]

the strat of eating the 4 in 214 is a bad idea for csz because you cant afford to keep eating it. you lose 11% and get knocked away to a place where you cant ever get back in lol. how many 4s can you afford to eat anyway? less then cage can eat when he tries to ex nut punch out of the string. do you know how many 11% 4's cage can afford to eat in this match? 0-2 TOPS per round. its no different for csz, you cant start eating 3,4, or 5 string enders per round.

Thanks for the checking out the thread. I must stress again that, this is not a thread of information telling you how to beat sub-zero hands down, as there really isn't anything for that, this match up is already well out of CSZ's favour, thats a well known fact. This is just to shed some light on an otherwise, terrible match for CSZ, there are areas to look for, and thats what I am doing here. I hope everyone can see that, or at least should.

The point about the 214 string is, sub zero has to use the non hit confirmable 214 string, blocking 21, then D4, will allow CSZ the d3. Yes, you will eat a 4, if you try parry the 21-4, and a clone will appear after the dial, and thats a safe bet that the clone is coming, as 214 isn't safe and they are sure as fuck not going to slide as every player is going to be fuzzy guarding the slide after 214 anyway. Nor am I telling anyone to just eat 4's, I don't think that is written anywhere, your putting words in my mouth, so to speak, I am saying, that's what to expect (214)

And I would absolutely love someone like yourself to write this from Sub-Zero's point of view, as it could only help with one of his worst matches. But I will repeat, no matter how bad it is, it is still my most favourite fight to fight.

 

[Tom Brady]

i am not sayong that you are saying to eat the 4, i was just going over the down side of the option.

 

[UsedForGlue]

sub does have air control, its called ice clone.

Yes, I did write that in the breakdown.

Sub is doing one of two things in the air, attack or clone, and your slide will anti air both, I wrote that you can slide on reaction to it.

 

[UsedForGlue]

i am not sayong that you are saying to eat the 4, i was just going over the down side of the option.

Ok cool.

I hope everyone gets that I am not saying ''do this, and you will beat sub zero'' not at all, not much is in CSZ's favour, this is a match in damage limitation for CSZ if any thing, thus the thread.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Updated

 

[NYCj360]

I appreciate the reply tom. But there are a couple of things that make kitana different from kabal in this matchup.

Kitana can not throw as many fans as kabal can do gas blast with the same rapid succession. One well place dive kick over fan and your next to her. One well placed dive kick over gas blast and you get another gas blast. Although kitana does have a good amount of control over the air, it is not enough to keep csz at bay.

Let's say you do get close to kitana its a pretty fair fight as long as you make good use of down 3 to interrupt pressure and attempt to take the offense. Kabal makes it so that you are next to him and cannot even jump or attack out of respect for his en nomad dash.

Kitanas wake up attacks are useless against cyber sub for the most part. All of her attacks are full combo punishable but simply throwing out a down 3 to bait attack and 33 once the move is cooling down. Kabal can wake up saw or en nd making it a complete guessing game for sub. Kitana can not punish ex dive kick but kabal can on the matter of getting you back into a nd cancel fest.

Kitana and kabal are similar in the respect of air control and priority
And are both amazing zoners, but to give kitana the advantage to csz just because she has similar traits to his worse matchup doesn't translate the same in this matchup. I still don't see how she has ant sort of crazy advantage over csz. If there are any scenarios in which are tide turning in this matchup or anything easily abusable that csz has no answer to please let me know what it is.

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[Flagg]

can someone breakdown what makes kitana vs csz a bad matchup?

I believe Tom Brady explains exactly why Kitana is about his hardest match up in the post beneath yours.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I appreciate the reply tom. But there are a couple of things that make kitana different from kabal in this matchup.

Kitana can not throw as many fans as kabal can do gas blast with the same rapid succession. One well place dive kick over fan and your next to her. One well placed dive kick over gas blast and you get another gas blast. Although kitana does have a good amount of control over the air, it is not enough to keep csz at bay.

Let's say you do get close to kitana its a pretty fair fight as long as you make good use of down 3 to interrupt pressure and attempt to take the offense. Kabal makes it so that you are next to him and cannot even jump or attack out of respect for his en nomad dash.

Kitanas wake up attacks are useless against cyber sub for the most part. All of her attacks are full combo punishable but simply throwing out a down 3 to bait attack and 33 once the move is cooling down. Kabal can wake up saw or en nd making it a complete guessing game for sub. Kitana can not punish ex dive kick but kabal can on the matter of getting you back into a nd cancel fest.

Kitana and kabal are similar in the respect of air control and priority
And are both amazing zoners, but to give kitana the advantage to csz just because she has similar traits to his worse matchup doesn't translate the same in this matchup. I still don't see how she has ant sort of crazy advantage over csz. If there are any scenarios in which are tide turning in this matchup or anything easily abusable that csz has no answer to please let me know what it is.

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Kabal is in my opinion, the worst possible fight for CSZ. Kitana can be beaten if played well, her cutter on wake up beats the 33 but not the d3. The Kabal match on the other hand...Damm.

 

[NYCj360]

Yes I agree kabal is just overwhelming at times. But I will keep trying at that matchup to see what I can do.

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[UsedForGlue]

Yes I agree kabal is just overwhelming at times. But I will keep trying at that matchup to see what I can do.

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Me too, I am leaving that one to last for the guide help, but, even at that, there isn't much to go on. Kabal has to fuck it up!

 

[NYCj360]

Oh and what I mean by 33 is not to throw it out first. It is throw out a down 3. You duck and place a well timed 33 once you've confirmed what move she has thrown out. All of them lead into full punish by csz

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[Tom Brady]

J360, i think you misunderstood what i was trying to say in my post.

i was basically saying that kitana has a degree of air control, but not to the degree of kabal or SZ as those 2 characters basically have perma-air control in this match. i was trying to say that while kitana doesnt have the air control of kabal, that she hurts when she is successful in it.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Oh and what I mean by 33 is not to throw it out first. It is throw out a down 3. You duck and place a well timed 33 once you've confirmed what move she has thrown out. All of them lead into full punish by csz

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I know the D3, beats the wake up, but I will start 33ing when it goes under the cutter. Thanks man, that helps.

PS. I need critique on the CSZ vs Sub stuff, from Good CSZ players and Sub players, so let me know if anything I have wrote just flatt out doesn't stand a chance, and if there is a chance, don't disregard it as its a damage limitation fight, you agree?

 

[NYCj360]

Oh cool tom thanks for clarifying that. What you posted is correct, anyone of those two requirements met take away some of his best options. What I'm questioning is why kitana is considered a bad matchup by most When that matchup is not played nearly enough to draw the conclusion.

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[NYCj360]

For the most part I agree with everything youve put up against sub. I think it would be best to hear from an experienced sub player like tom vs what he's looking out for when fighting a csz

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[UsedForGlue]

For the most part I agree with everything youve put up against sub. I think it would be best to hear from an experienced sub player like tom vs what he's looking out for when fighting a csz

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That would be tight.

Need to get a solid Kabal player to pitch in too.

Reo would be good for that, he does play both.

 

[Might Tested]

Considering how crappy Cyber's pokes are, and how good Kitana's pokes are, she also does very well close up. It's quite hard to get in, and once you're in it's no cake walk either. It's not like "Oh you're in. EPIC FLAWLESS VICTORY." She can still block like anyone else, and she's can easily deal with Cyber's blockstrings with her pokes and by simple fuzzy-ing. Think you can time the slide? Cool, 9 percent. You earned it. Mess up? She goes on a meterless lolapalooza that takes off half your health from all the meter she's gained, and I'm not even quite sure what a lolapalooza is, but it probably isn't cute and/or cuddly.

 

[Alice]

She's on the list but i saw no word about Mileena. I felt like I always had more chance against Kabal, and even managed to win more matches against him than Mileena. Maybe I miss something important, but for me she is the worst thing that can happen if I play CSZ. She's too fast to zone her anyway, and too fast for me to properly react. In the face there is some chance, but I rarely get there. Any suggestions?

 

[Might Tested]

Mileena has to play just as safe as Cyber, since she cannot roll or teleport in fear of getting U4xxSpecial or 34,B22xxSlide'd on every time.

With that said, you just took off her wakeup options, as even her ExTele you can just parry in between.

So, all you have to worry about is her zoning and up close game. While I cannot speak for her close range game because that is something I'm not entirely familar with at a high level like Pig's, her zoning is like anyone else's, use Cyber's damn good dash to get in at least half screen, dive kick on reaction, or close in.

Personally, I find it best to condition a Mileena to never want to wakeup in a million years in fear of getting dunked on, and once that conditioning is there, start the pressure game.

Also, don't randomly divekick. I know that seems obvious, but really, Mileena can roll punish that every time, it sucks, I know.