CSZ Problem Match Up Guide

[UsedForGlue]

Hi Guys.

I was asked to put together a match up chart for CSZ a while ago and I have been putting work into it ever since, but I thought it would be pointless giving you statistics and match up charts for CSZ considering the game is too fresh for full match up charts in my opinion, an example would be Skarlet, although we have not seen an amazing representative human player for her yet along with the fact that she is one of the least looked into characters, she is somehow tier listed already. Even considering peoples opinions for tier lists, they can only be estimates at best, as only theory can be used for certain match ups.

So I thought I would sack the whole tier list, as good CSZ players will know that almost half the cast doesn't matter to a CSZ player, except for the really horrible match ups, and some just awkward match ups (Sektor for example) that can be out of your reach if the opponent plays it right, so with that in mind, I thought I would provide help for these match ups.

I have looked at some of the tier lists around the forum, and even though CSZ has a few ''5-5'' listed matches for certain characters, for example, Ermac. In theory, it's an even match, as Ermac can force push to keep CSZ out but but because Ermac's wake up options are bad, then technically it should be a 5-5, but no, that can't be all there is to it. That's why I feel its best to ignore the statistics and theory, and instead look at the practical match up options.

So, I will be focusing on only his BAD match ups:

(These are in no particular order)

WORST MATCH UPS:
Sub-Zero
Kitana
Mileena
Kabal

AWKWARD MATCH UPS:
Cyrax
Jax
Ermac
Sektor
Sindel

I will start with Sub-Zero, and update the guide with a new character each time.

SUB-ZERO:
Cyber Sub-Zero vs Human Sub-Zero:

First thing is, this is personally my favourite match up in the entire game to play. If you look at this match up in theory, then it is clearly a fight Cyber Sub cannot and should not win, even though that might be true, and it is a very tough match for CSZ, even against lesser quality sub zero opponents, it is winnable with a few things to keep in mind, and you can make this match up very hard for Human Sub Zero in return.

Sub Zero's B&B Sting - Clone
Against CSZ this string is not an option on block for your opponent, as you can interrupt the last hit of the string with your parry, this is a fact, which mean's Sub Zero has to void himself of this string and instead go for - . Regardless, you can Sub Zero out of both of the options as your is a 6 frame poke, whilst Sub-Zero's is 8 frame and a 7 frame (with less range than CSZ) So, after some conditioning, Sub Zero will now have to switch to which is too fast to hit confirm from, which means they will either hit you with the last hit of the sting and put you out of pressure and leave a clone up on the screen, or go through on the whole string ending with a clone, thus leaving themselfs open to your next set of options.

Your other options when blocking either of these strings is to predict your opponent will follow through with all three hits of either string and end with a clone, and if you read him right, you will be able to catch sub zero with an Ice Ball on reaction or guarantee it with :en Ice Beam, and if you connect the ice ball or ice beam, you can teleport past the clone for your B&B combo.

TRADING:
Anytime that Sub-Zero throws out an Ice Ball, you counter his Ice Ball, with a simple Dive Kick.

If Sub Zero puts up a clone, and decides to throw an ice ball from behind it, then prepare to trade your :en Ice Beam with his Ice Ball, even if you get frozen, your Ice Beam freeze will last long enough for you to break out and then break his stupid cloning face.
HUMAN SUB CHARGE RESET:
This option is a no no for Human Zero. If Sub Zero hits you with a combo or ice ball, he cannot charge up a b2 for these reaons:
1. If it charged too early it will combo and not freeze.
2. If it is charged too late, then you parry the B2 as soon as the ice breaks.
3. If the charge is cancelled and instead moves into another string, you can parry that also.

Sub Zero can't apply the ''will he block, or won't he block'' mentality as the parry beats both his options. So Sub-Zero might as well finish the combo after the freeze. Now, some of you smart ass Sub Zero players will probably be saying ''No UsedForFag!, Sub Zero can cancel the charge up, and go into a '' Yes, he can, but that comes at the cost of 20% additional damage, so be my guest.

In a nut shell, expect the 214 clone.

AIR CONTROL:
Sub Zero has no air control in this fight. When he is in the air he is doing one of two things:

1. Jumping in for a combo.
2. Jumping and cloning.

Either way, you can Parry his JIP, and if Sub Zero jumps at you and cancels into an air ice clone, you will recover from your parry in time to block. You can always go for a slide on reaction to his JIP or Air Clone, your slide will work as an anti air and/or go under his air clone and connect with him on the way down, the slide is based on reaction and spacing, and above all, none of the information I have given you is going to guarantee you 100% brain dead success, these match ups are not in your favour, but you can win them by being on point and out thinking your opponent.

ICE BOMBS:
Yes, they are cool as fuck, but let's be careful. Because if we start showing off with out cool new Cyber Technology in front of the old out dated human sub zero, we can be caught easily with any old Ice Ball that he throws out if we time it wrong. Sub Zero is one of those matches that we can utilise this special move out side of a combo, but again, be careful.

There are opportunities to use it, such as:

At full screen, on reaction to an ice clone, you will have just about the right amount of time to deploy a long bomb before an ice ball hits you, from here, Sub Zero has to move, you can either be happy that you moved him, as other wise he has no reason to ever move at you, or dive kick stun him into the bomb, also note that if he jumps, he cannot throw out another clone whilst his current clone is still on the screen, so refer to your slide and the anti air.

Short bombs can be excellently used the closer and closer you get pushed to the corner. Sneak in a few a short bombs and stay just beind them to give yourself a few valuable seconds of breathing space.

AFTER SLIDE 50/50 ANTI CLONE WAKE UP:
Anytime you land a slide, Sub Zero cannot roll away, all he can do is wake up, and if he wake up attacks with a clone and you are right next to him, it will not appear on the screen, this will allow you on reaction, another slide. So, from here you can continue your Slide or Slide 50/50 Mix ups. This is where you will get your damage.

X-RAY DAMAGE:
Cyber Sub-Zero's comes with Armour. At full screen you can, on reaction, punish Sub Zero's Ice Beam or Ice Ball, even through a clone, for 36% damage. You will need your breaker, so I don't recommend using this unless you intend to kill off Sub-Zero.


CORNER ESCAPE TRICK:
If you are stuck in the corner against sub zero, you have no armored moves to break through the clone, you will have to escape.
If you find a space to throw out a bomb, then throw out a long or medium bomb, and as soon as sub zero steps in front of it, teleport. Sub-Zero cannot punish you on reaction to the teleport as the bomb will be rolling between you both. Nice little trick if you can pull it off.

You can also far dive kick over the clone, but you have to make sure it is timed well and completely wiff over Sub's head, and you don't hit a blocking a sub zero.

NOTES:
Be patient. As neither of you can take damage from the other one unless you actually hit each other, and CSZ can't relay on 13 bomb hits per round, which is the exact amount of bombs alone you would have to land to kill sub zero - 8% Per Bomb, 13 times = 104% = Never gona happen.

Peace.

 

[Might Tested]

Just a thought, if you insta-teleport, and Subby throws out an ice ball, if timed correctly, you'll be on the other side -just- before he can recover.
Also, if you do happen to jump at Subby, and he puts an ice clone right at your landing, you might as well teleport on reaction (not as easy as it sounds :3 )
^Yes, that's risky, but it's better than eating an ice clone.

Also, the OTG U4xxTeleport resets are a must if you're losing on health, since that's the fastest way for a comeback.

And, I was wondering, how the nucking futz do you deal with Kitana. Considering, jumping is not an option. And her poke-block string pressure absolutely wrecks Cyber's god awful down 3. Assuming you should down 2, but even then...

 

[GuamoKun]

Just a thought, if you insta-teleport, and Subby throws out an ice ball, if timed correctly, you'll be on the other side -just- before he can recover.
Also, if you do happen to jump at Subby, and he puts an ice clone right at your landing, you might as well teleport on reaction (not as easy as it sounds :3 )
^Yes, that's risky, but it's better than eating an ice clone.

Also, the OTG U4xxTeleport resets are a must if you're losing on health, since that's the fastest way for a comeback.

And, I was wondering, how the nucking futz do you deal with Kitana. Considering, jumping is not an option. And her poke-block string pressure absolutely wrecks Cyber's god awful down 3. Assuming you should down 2, but even then...

Teleporting is only useful if you can confirm into it, like after the U4, or after a freeze. Other than that, using them to get in when the opponent is free is really difficult. When CSZ plays against his bad matchups he needs to be way more careful than usual. What I think glue is trying to show is that you have to make his bad matchups try to work around CSZ's stuff, not making CSZ try to counter their tools and risk getting blown up.

Against Kitana, I usually do EX bombs to force her to make a mistake, and go for a slide for an untechable knockdown. Her wakeup game isnt too great and I try to exploit that. Still hard to do, when her swarm of fans and d1 pressure wrecks CSZ, but thats why you find answers for them.

 

[Nick T.]

I like the breakdown of the SZ/CSZ matchup. I don't play it too often so it's good to see it from a CSZ perspective.
I also like how you mention footsies and conditioning, unfortunately 99% of the people on here don't know what that is, but good shit.

So considering the wakeup 50/50 and the threat of parry, would you say the match is 5.5/4.5 for CSZ? I know the match is supposedly in SZ's favor and I could see it with the 21/22/D4 pressure, but CSZ still seems to be a threat in some form.

 

[Might Tested]

True, but there are instances where if you see a Subby about to throw an iceball, and you don't have the meter, you may be able to tele then punish before he recovers. Teleporting if you're gonna land in an ice-clone though, well you have to do that, unless without a doubt you can divekick him and he won't block it.

And against the high level Kitana's, every time they see a bomb, they just douchily instant air fan and laugh
And how do you exploit her wakeups? o.o
That Exfanlift and dash-swing-cutter thing is pretty good O_O

 

[Might Tested]

So considering the wakeup 50/50 and the threat of parry, would you say the match is 5.5/4.5 for CSZ? I know the match is supposedly in SZ's favor and I could see it with the 21/22/D4 pressure, but CSZ still seems to be a threat in some form.

This matchup is heavily in Sub Zero's favor. Cyber has to play ridiculously safe, make perfect reads, and throw out risky 1 bar Ice-beams on good reads. Whereas, Sub Zero can get in quite easily, or can sit back behind his ice clones and build meter effortlessly with little risk.
It's an uphill battle, for sure.

 

[GuamoKun]

True, but there are instances where if you see a Subby about to throw an iceball, and you don't have the meter, you may be able to tele then punish before he recovers. Teleporting if you're gonna land in an ice-clone though, well you have to do that, unless without a doubt you can divekick him and he won't block it.

And against the high level Kitana's, every time they see a bomb, they just douchily instant air fan and laugh
And how do you exploit her wakeups? o.o
That Exfanlift and dash-swing-cutter thing is pretty good O_O

EX bombs + EX freeze will shut down kitana a couple of times. Kitana will ALWAYS do her buttpress move to escape and if done early it escapes the ex freeze. but, you can anticipate this and do a njp to her as she trues to reach you. On wake-up, both the ex and normal lift are not very safe when blocked, but if they aren't then its a good punish. If they expect that you are gonna block the lift then they will do the cutter, and the cutter can be duck under and poked. Even try doing a cross up.

I also main Kitana so I know what they like to do on wakeup.

 

[Might Tested]

It can be ducked? Sweet jesus (,:

I honestly would rather learn another character than have to fight against Kitana with Cyber. She's donkey kong. And you're Mario. And yeah, it's possible, but how much easier would that be if you could be the girl from Portal, y'know?
And since Cyrax seems to do decently against Kitana and Kabal, that seems like the obvious choice.

 

[GuamoKun]

It can be ducked? Sweet jesus (,:

I honestly would rather learn another character than have to fight against Kitana with Cyber. She's donkey kong. And you're Mario. And yeah, it's possible, but how much easier would that be if you could be the girl from Portal, y'know?
And since Cyrax seems to do decently against Kitana and Kabal, that seems like the obvious choice.

You can also duck her fans completely if you don't block. Well if bad matchups really get you salty, angry, and bitter then CSZ is not the character for you. He has bad matchup and HE WILL NEVER RECEIVE A BUFF in any patch so you just have to hope that his bad matchups will be nerfed, which is highly unlikely. But counterpicking isn't all that bad. Learning characters that CSZ has trouble with helps you see the holes in their game. Its also good to pick up someone who can go against his bad matchups really well.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Guamo: add AU_mr_mileena on ps3

If you beat her kitana twice out of 10 games I'll pay your next majors registration

In other words: get another character to use against tournament level kitanas cause IT AIN'T HAPPENING

btw CSZ vs sub is 6-4 IMO sub. With CSz you just have to be more patient and strike only when guarenteed


UsedforgLue: you need to acknowledge elite sub players will cancel b2 into d4which gives advantage

 

[Might Tested]

Guamo: add AU_mr_mileena on ps3

If you beat her kitana twice out of 10 games I'll pay your next majors registration

In other words: get another character to use against tournament level kitanas cause IT AIN'T HAPPENING

THE PIG GAUNTLET!
I accept your challenge good sir! Can we play on Sans Power, my good man?

 

[GuamoKun]

Guamo: add AU_mr_mileena on ps3

If you beat her kitana twice out of 10 games I'll pay your next majors registration

In other words: get another character to use against tournament level kitanas cause IT AIN'T HAPPENING

btw CSZ vs sub is 6-4 IMO sub. With CSz you just have to be more patient and strike only when guarenteed


UsedforgLue: you need to acknowledge elite sub players will cancel b2 into d4which gives advantage

Challenge accepted! No really I actually will try this. Also, I know about maining someone else to cover for CSZ bad matchups. Any offer to by a major paid is nothing to pass up and neither is a chance to level up against a good Kitana player. Especially some as good as mr mileena/Kitana

I'll probably get blown up but I will try to win!

 

[Might Tested]

Dear friends of Guamo Kun,
I wish I could tell you that Guamo fought the good fight, and Mr Mileena let him be. I wish I could tell you that - but the Netherrealm is no fairy-tale world. He never said who did it, but we all knew. Things went on like that for awhile - Cyber's life consists of routine, and then more routine. Every so often, Guamo would show up with fresh bruises. The Mr Mileena kept at him - sometimes he was able to fight 'em off, sometimes not. And that's how it went for Guamo - that was his routine. I do believe those first ten matches were the worst for him, and I also believe that if things had gone on that way, Netherrealm would have got the best of him.

 

[UsedForGlue]

So considering the wakeup 50/50 and the threat of parry, would you say the match is 5.5/4.5 for CSZ.

Absolutly not. Your missing the point of all of this. The point of this thread to show the areas you can take advantage of in your bad match ups. Sub Zero holds the cards in this match.

 

[UsedForGlue]

What I think glue is trying to show is that you have to make his bad matchups try to work around CSZ's stuff, not making CSZ try to counter their tools and risk getting blown up..

Yes, exactly, thank you.

 

[Might Tested]

Glue, in theory though, if you were down on health, what risks -would- you take?

 

[UsedForGlue]

UsedforgLue: you need to acknowledge elite sub players will cancel b2 into d4which gives advantage

Pig, I don't mean to be rude, but did you read everything I wrote about the b2 cancel?

I said, yes, they can, and feel free to do so.

Why would I be bothered by anyone that decides to not finish a full combo after I am frozen, or even reset me back into another combo, just to gain frame advantage from a d4 when they already have me frozen?

Giving up a full combo and reset, for frame advantage...after a freeze. Please, please do that.

 

[UsedForGlue]

UsedforgLue: you need to acknowledge elite sub players will cancel b2 into d4which gives advantage

Here is where i acknowledged it, I went as far as to predict that someone would say exactly what you did.

"Now, some of you smart ass Sub Zero players will probably be saying ''No UsedForFag!, Sub Zero can cancel the charge up, and go into a D4 '' Yes, he can, but that comes at the cost of 20% additional damage, so be my guest"

 

[UsedForGlue]

Updated a corner escape trick. Forgot about it when I made the first post. Sounds gimmicky, but it works.

 

[Flagg]

I always feel CSZ against Sektor or Cyrax is a fairly even match up.

Kitana and Jax are still ridiculously hard to beat. Believe it or not, Baraka is also quite a hard match up for CSZ. His spin takes care of CSZ jumping, you can punish blocked dive kick with charge, if you always attack CSZ with B3, then parry will not save you, and I think out the two, Baraka is better up close in your face.

Sub Zero is hard, but like Pig said you just have to be patient, but lets face facts...it's SZ and most the cast have to be patient fighting against Mr hide behind ice clones.

 

[shura30]

CORNER ESCAPE TRICK:
If you are stuck in the corner against sub zero, you have no armored moves to break through the clone, you will have to escape.
If you find a space to throw out a bomb, then throw out a long or medium bomb, and as soon as sub zero steps in front of it, teleport. Sub-Zero cannot punish you on reaction to the teleport as the bomb will be rolling between you both. Nice little trick. If you the land the bomb and he moves in front, you will get it.

isn't the bomb punishable (by regular sub slide in this case) on reaction?
bomb cyborgs should be open until the bomb reaches the ground right?

 

[GuamoKun]

isn't the bomb punishable (by regular sub slide in this case) on reaction?
bomb cyborgs should be open until the bomb reaches the ground right?

I think so, I don't have as much experience against Sub-Zero since its easy to get newer players to make mistakes, but against really smart players like Shoryuken, its really really difficult to try anything really.

Remember, these are widely considered by most the "worst" match ups he has. It will not be easy to win even against a lesser skilled opponent.

 

[Tom Brady]

maybe a sub player should come in here and tell you the match from their side? plenty of holes in that breakdown. for 1, sub does have air control, its called ice clone. to beat csz you have to have at least 1 of 2 things:

1. be able to punish the safer dive kick
2. have air control

if you have #1, csz still has his best mix up of jump in or dive kick. if you have #2, its very hard for csz to win because his best mix up is hard to establish. if you have #1 and #2 then its a problem. while sub-zero has both, he has #2 in the form of a well placed clone which will occupy the space csz needs to occupy all while sub-zero can still move around.

the 212/214 strings. dude.. i will 214 that bitch in the face all day. go on and eat 11% kicks in the face in a match where you have problems approaching and have limited to no comeback factor in. in the corner.. yes.. i WILL sometimes make a read and throw out 214~ice blast and you better pray to god that you arent trying to parry or you are dead, especially if i have xray.

in short, all csz really has in this match is a parry.. thats the only thing that stops this match from being an 8-2/10-0 match for sub-zero.

maybe sometime soon i'll write a full breakdown of this match because there is a lot of info left out.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Sub can empty jump and punish a parry attempt

 

[Tom Brady]

the strat of eating the 4 in 214 is a bad idea for csz because you cant afford to keep eating it. you lose 11% and get knocked away to a place where you cant ever get back in lol. how many 4s can you afford to eat anyway? less then cage can eat when he tries to ex nut punch out of the string. do you know how many 11% 4's cage can afford to eat in this match? 0-2 TOPS per round. its no different for csz, you cant start eating 3,4, or 5 string enders per round.