Composite Tier Lists for MKX

[shaowebb]

Variation will have its own matchup strengths and weaknesses. You can't average that because they are seperate stats that don't overlap into the each other's respective matches.

Matchup numbers will be made per variant and we all know this. You can't tell me Kano's Zoner variant and his grappler Commando variant have an "average matchup" versus someone when you know for a fact the entire matchup numbers change depending on which tools he has and which subsequent variation of his opponent he faces.

Its no longer Raiden vs Kano its Displacer vs Commando.

Its like trying to give an average matchup number for Cyrax and Cyblax...they aint the same thing.

 

[KH StarCharger]

You would have thought that the tongue in cheek tone of this thread would have been sensed after I said that the NRS community treats tier lists as the, "word of God".

Either way if we are to get serious about it, THTB hits the nail on the head such that the variations can be treated as their own entities.

 

[Juffalo]

I think it's likely that each character will have a variation that is best suited to fighting another character, and that variation will set the matchup number. IIf not we are going to have some terrifyingly long and complex tier lists.

Actually that sounds pretty awesome, the best part about tier lists is watching everyone argue about them.

 

[Barrogh]

Lumping kits together just because they are represented by a single character in the lore is pointless.
Performance of particular variation against some opponent has no bearing on how another one will perform, and there is no point in considering "the other two" variations since their existence don't affect any particular matchup any more than existence of other characters.

I don't feel like making another wall of text pointing out ridiculous fallacies associated with this approach. I'm simply tired of doing that every time somebody posts same stuff over and over again.

Can you people at least use search function before posting or something? Smh.

 

[Eddy Wang]

For now, without touching the game, formulating this could be dificult, yet your idea doesn't stretch much away from what i have planned much ahead in the game for tier lists:

Comparing all variations and in the tier list and the character with the most overall advantage gets a better position.

 

[Barrogh]

Comparing all variations and in the tier list and the character with the most overall advantage gets a better position.

Sorry, can you rephrase that?

 

[jbthrash]

I think a more detailed tier list that would treat each variation as a separate character would be the best option for a traditional FG tier list.
However I think your on the right track in terms of something simpler. It would be nice to judge characters as a whole.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Sorry, can you rephrase that?

Yeah, kinda difficult to explain now.

What i want the tier list to be is like:

1. Scorpion (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
2. Cassie (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
3. Quan Chi (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
4. Sub-Zero (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
5. Kotal (overall variations better than the characters bellow)

What most ppl are predicting is
1. Inferno Scorpion
2. Grand Master Sub
3. Displacer Raiden
4. Blood Kotal
5. Spec Cassie
6. Soldier Sonya
7. Assassin Kitana

My idea takes longer to complete but it shortens the tier list, even if for example, Ninjutsu Scorpion has 2 losing matchups against 2 cassies variations, the other two have advantageous over the 3 variations cassies possess. But this can't be calculated now without touching the game, its a bit similar to how we do ratings.

We compare two characters with each variations and the rating overall goes to the character who has the most winnable advantages among the variations. Of course we can later detail which are the bad matchups for each variation.

This is so confusing right now lol.

 

[Montanx]

Slightly off topic but this seems like a good time to jump in and remind any newcomers or noobs (like me) that tier lists are only relevant at high levels of play. Meaning if two Joe blows play each other, the matchup chart and 9-1 or 6-4 goes out the window.

It may seem common knowledge but a shocking number of players start out, lose and say "wtf I read my guy is 9-1 against his guy, I should win!". But really until your near pro level of good at a fighting game, its just you vs him, no tier list will help. Same with frame data. In the thick of a fight with a split second to act, only amazing players can stop and say..."hmm, that attack I just blocked leaves me with +4 frames so I can respond with a 3 frame startup move." No, ain't happen in until your neo matrix level good. Not with milliseconds of time to decide.

The point of all this is especially with MKX it seems, play who you like or who you are comfortable with. Tiers are just rough guidelines for competetive play.

This is all just my personal opinion of course.

 

[Peckapowa]

Now this game is already only 2 months away and more and more is getting dropped as each week passes. With the variation system that will be in place, how many characters could be in, and how this community treats tier lists as the word of god, the question arises: How in the hell can we make a tier grade for a character when they have 3 styles? My answer: Why not grade them out based on how all three perform, combined?

For Example, I'm going to use Kitana and her 3 styles. Now Style A will be used against all other characters styles (As, Bs, and Cs) and you record the advantage/disadvantage/neutral MU against all of the casts styles. After that, you have Style B and you repeat the process. Then the process is done for style C. This treats each style as the character's only fighting style and you create a Tier grade of that style against the rest of the styles in the game. You take those results from all three styles, then you Average out the grades of all three styles in order to grade the character as a whole.

FOR individual MU's, let's take Kitana vs. Cassie Cage. Kitana style A vs. Cassie Style A considered a 5-5, Kitana B vs. CC B 6-4, C vs. C 4-6, A vs. B 6-4, C vs. B 5-5, B vs. A 5-5, C vs. A 6-4. (Bear with me) now total all of those figures together for this MU as a whole and you get:

Kitana: 37
Cassie Cage: 33

Kitana would win the MU by an avg of 6.2 to 5.5 more or less if I were to divide those figures by 6 since there's 6 combos in this Match. (All hypothetical. Don't kill me future cassie mains lol). As a whole, this could take a while to figure out and it could be fun to watch this evolve with time. Either way, It HAS BEGUN!

This is retarded logic, what if kitana a beats every Cassie cage variation, but kitana c is a don key balls character? It wouldn't accurately tier kitana if kitana a is universally top tier but kitana c sucks monkey balls. The variations are different characters enough to the point where the most accurate way to tier/mu is to treat every character differently, because that is how their mus will be. 72 character tier lists and my charts here we go

Things like this need to be decided upon organically. As the game and how it's played upon release dictate. It's like when people are trying to decide on terminology in regards to variations or when IGAU was leading up to release how we all debated on how to term combos (using 1234 or lmh etc.). these things will come, and come quickly upon getting our hands on the game and will be logical as we progress.

No actually, treating each character variation different is the only logical way too approach the situation. this shit makes no sense at all. We don't need to wait. We shouldn't be debating this

 

[Peckapowa]

For now, without touching the game, formulating this could be dificult, yet your idea doesn't stretch much away from what i have planned much ahead in the game for tier lists:

Comparing all variations and in the tier list and the character with the most overall advantage gets a better position.

Once again stupid logic. What if kabal A bests every character in the game? But kabal b and c are mk9 Kano tier? There is no need to play kabal b and c, and his placement wouldn't accurately depict the fact that he overpowers every character in the game. You aren't playing all 3 variations at once. The fact people think this way pains me..

 

[Peckapowa]

Lumping kits together just because they are represented by a single character in the lore is pointless.
Performance of particular variation against some opponent has no bearing on how another one will perform, and there is no point in considering "the other two" variations since their existence don't affect any particular matchup any more than existence of other characters.

I don't feel like making another wall of text pointing out ridiculous fallacies associated with this approach. I'm simply tired of doing that every time somebody posts same stuff over and over again.

Can you people at least use search function before posting or something? Smh.

Thank you

Yeah, kinda difficult to explain now.

What i want the tier list to be is like:

1. Scorpion (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
2. Cassie (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
3. Quan Chi (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
4. Sub-Zero (overall variations better than the characters bellow)
5. Kotal (overall variations better than the characters bellow)

What most ppl are predicting is
1. Inferno Scorpion
2. Grand Master Sub
3. Displacer Raiden
4. Blood Kotal
5. Spec Cassie
6. Soldier Sonya
7. Assassin Kitana

My idea takes longer to complete but it shortens the tier list, even if for example, Ninjutsu Scorpion has 2 losing matchups against 2 cassies variations, the other two have advantageous over the 3 variations cassies possess. But this can't be calculated now without touching the game, its a bit similar to how we do ratings.

We compare two characters with each variations and the rating overall goes to the character who has the most winnable advantages among the variations. Of course we can later detail which are the bad matchups for each variation.

This is so confusing right now lol.

For the love of God no. Please refer to barrogh. I'd like to reiterate one more time, this shir makes absolutely 0 sense.

 

[Barrogh]

This is so confusing right now lol.

This will always be confusing.
Simple example: V1 is godlike zoner, V2 and V3 don't have what makes V1 good, all they have is shitty universal moves and shitty gimmicks as V-specific stuff. Composite list will make it look like this character is lower mid tier despite V1 destroying entire cast and V2 and V3 being beaten badly by everyone.
Composite list will be shorter, but if it ever will provide right information, that's only by luck and for all the wrong reasons. There's simply no such thing in the game as "composite kit".

Then there is a question as to why lumping together zoner (cyber) and rushdown (cutthroat) is more justified than two zoners (inferno and cyber) or two rushdowns (cutthroat and maybe ninja?). Just because they have almost identical costumes?

That's even before we consider such oddballs like Mystic and Mourner. We don't know a lot about latter, I give you that, but it's rather safe to expect different normals, different utility specials, different projectiles...

I mean, Capcom community would tear me apart for saying that Ruy and Ken should become composite "Shoto" character and share a spot in tier lists, but to NRS community Inferno that throws Imps at me from fullscreen and TPs away and Ninja that TPs in and hits me in the face with swords are the same?
Like, what the hell is wrong with you people?

 

[Peckapowa]

Slightly off topic but this seems like a good time to jump in and remind any newcomers or noobs (like me) that tier lists are only relevant at high levels of play. Meaning if two Joe blows play each other, the matchup chart and 9-1 or 6-4 goes out the window.

It may seem common knowledge but a shocking number of players start out, lose and say "wtf I read my guy is 9-1 against his guy, I should win!". But really until your near pro level of good at a fighting game, its just you vs him, no tier list will help. Same with frame data. In the thick of a fight with a split second to act, only amazing players can stop and say..."hmm, that attack I just blocked leaves me with +4 frames so I can respond with a 3 frame startup move." No, ain't happen in until your neo matrix level good. Not with milliseconds of time to decide.

The point of all this is especially with MKX it seems, play who you like or who you are comfortable with. Tiers are just rough guidelines for competetive play.

This is all just my personal opinion of course.

No your opinion is fact. Tiers are meant for highest possible level of play only. It's not an opinion, it's what they are, no need to de-umphitise yourself

 

[Peckapowa]

This will always be confusing.
Simple example: V1 is godlike zoner, V2 and V3 don't have what makes V1 good, all they have is shitty universal moves and shitty gimmicks as V-specific stuff. Composite list will make it look like this character is lower mid tier despite V1 destroying entire cast and V2 and V3 being beaten badly by everyone.
Composite list will be shorter, but if it ever will provide right information, that's only by luck and for all the wrong reasons. There's simply no such thing in the game as "composite kit".

Then there is a question as to why lumping together zoner (cyber) and rushdown (cutthroat) is more justified than two zoners (inferno and cyber) or two rushdowns (cutthroat and maybe ninja?). Just because they have almost identical costumes?

That's even before we consider such oddballs like Mystic and Mourner. We don't know a lot about latter, I give you that, but it's rather safe to expect different normals, different utility specials, different projectiles...

I mean, Capcom community would tear me apart for saying that Ruy and Ken should become composite "Shoto" character and share a spot in tier lists, but Inferno that throws Imps at me from fullscreen and TPs away and Ninja that TPs in and hits me in the face with swords are the same?
Like, what the hell is wrong with you people?

It shouldn't be confusing it should be a given accepted fact.

 

[Barrogh]

It shouldn't be confusing it should be a given accepted fact.

Well, I was referring to Eddy's line that composite lists are confusing at the moment.
My opinion was that they always will be confusing, as in: confusing the hell out of people with information that may or may not have something to do with actual practical matchup.

 

[@MylesWright_]

That Kitana variation breaks the mechanics of the game. I was playing sets with PL before and beating him 10-2 but since he started using that variation..

 

[Barrogh]

That Kitana variation breaks the mechanics of the game. I was playing sets with PL before and beating him 10-2 but since he started using that variation..

Note to self: one should take a break from TYM if seeing "10-2" makes you think "but that's not the proper MU number!" and only then realize what's being talked about...

But I really should before all these variation talks drive me mad

 

[Zatoichi]

I will just say that Reptile will always be top tier to me, except when he's human, then he's Dan Tier.


Also, lets just rate each variation like it's a separate character, it's more work but overall more simple in my opinion.

 

[RyuKazuya]

We like tier lists!!

 

[Treadmill]

This is retarded logic, what if kitana a beats every Cassie cage variation, but kitana c is a don key balls character? It wouldn't accurately tier kitana if kitana a is universally top tier but kitana c sucks monkey balls. The variations are different characters enough to the point where the most accurate way to tier/mu is to treat every character differently, because that is how their mus will be. 72 character tier lists and my charts here we go



No actually, treating each character variation different is the only logical way too approach the situation. this shit makes no sense at all. We don't need to wait. We shouldn't be debating this

He has spoken. Make it so.



Also stop saying retarded with the expectation of being taken seriously.

 

[Luke Stofan]

Quan Chi makes people walk into his sword and kills them... He is obviously of the highest tier.

 

[LordBison]

Tier lists.....what are these things for? Something to force a persons brain to drop the character they want to main for the absolute "best". Make your character into something. Put in the time and work and you can accomplish things. I know this isn't true, especially for the really bad characters but honestly.....there are people out there who can do it.

 

[Name v.5.0]

Man...close this thread. Dont start with this crap already.

 

[The_Furax]

Tier list and mu results will be pretty hard in this game considering all styles. It'll take a lot of time to put this all together on paper.