General/Other - Shinnok Community Suggested Improvements For Shinnok

[legion666]

It would be cool if BF1 would absorb projectiles and steal them.
2 different "Steal" moves would be awesome

Yes, like you absorb them and than can shoot with the same input bf1)))

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Yes, like you absorb them and than can shoot with the same input bf1)))

it's nice to want things...

 

[Bender]

Lol Imposter buffs? Really?

Imposter is scary strong. He got buffed through the roof in the first patch - just be happy with what you got. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets slightly nerfed in the future.

Give his one variation better tracking and call it a day. (Maybe they need more - I have only played good Imposters so don't really know how good/ bad the other variations are).

 

[SPY]

Firstly, Shinnok needs fixes for his inconsistencies: 1[1]2 wiffs at max range, 3[1]2 don't hit crouch blocking opponents, f2[2]4 don't hit crouch blocking opponents(females only?).
2) Make exAmulet useful - it's slower than nonEx version and inferior to post-patch HSmb. Faster startup, armor break and damage increase based on number of projectiles absorbed(one hit only, up to +7.5% after 3 projectiles absorbed).
3) Shinnok lacks mid screen meterless damage - 312~SC-SC is his only damaging option, but very unreliable - 3 is 15f startup, moves him slightly back, 3[1]2 will sometimes wiff on crouch blocking opponents and 312~SC-SC is 1f link, mid screen only, hurtbox size dependent. Forward moving 3, wiffing fix on 312 and bit higher juggle on SC should make it at least a possible option.
4) Make 4 10-12f startup move, so Shinnok will have fast mid range punisher. Currently it outclassed by f4, f3, 3, f2 and even by raw HS all of which are mid\low, have more range, better combo scaling or are hit confirmable(depending on variation) and have similiar startup. It becomes fast, high, non hit confirmable, close-mid range punisher with worse scaling on short combos and ok on long ones.
5) Higher juggle on exSlam and exSC for easier combos is good, but not that important.
As for other stuff I'm mostly agreed with Helter Skelter changes. SC and exSC recovery changes - it require more work to increase blockstun, hitstun and juggle potential to compensate for recovery change rather than just increase its juggle potential alone. Plus it could break Shinnok balance if he will have fast recovery, all variations mobility move. b3 change - as i concerned most overhead starters are unsafe, so I can't think of a reason why Shinnok needs safe one. I'm getting used to useless normals\strings in MK9 and MKX, so idk about f3\f4,1,d2,u2 buff.
Not a fan of Necromancer variation, so i cannot comment or add on that changes.

 

[Hidan]

These are good suggestions and he needs them.

They are far from good, he doesn't need any of those. Necromancer moves are the only things that need changing

 

[SaltShaker]

They are far from good, he doesn't need any of those. Necromancer moves are the only things that need changing

Some of you guys think so many characters need nothing, while uber characters exist. I'll never understand lol.

 

[Hidan]

Some of you guys think so many characters need nothing, while uber characters exist. I'll never understand lol.

I'll elaborate. I'll bring the post here though

UNIVERSAL SUGGESTIONS

3 (QUICK STOMP) to move Shinnok forward
Although it's slow and does not have any inherent mixup properties, this move has the potential to be very useful. It is Shinnok's main hit-confirmable string and also a true block string into Necromancer's Devil's Flick move. The dilemma is that this move has a terrible hitbox and makes it incredibly hard to use it even off a Jump-In-Punch. If this attack moved Shinnok forward a little bit, it would be consistent enough to use in more situations

B,F+3 (CHARGING SHOULDER) recovery on hit reduced to 12f
It's unsafe on block so you have to use this move in combos anyway and then when you hit someone with it you're stuck to the floor in recovery frames. If its recovery is reduced by half you can chase people after hitting it and make it easier to extend the specific combos that can be followed up from it.

B,F+1+Block (AMULET CURSE) to gain armor but become -6f/-7f on block
This move had uses before Shinnok's fixes because Hell Sparks couldn't be meter burned on block at the time. Now that you can meter burn Hell Sparks, this move has been completed invalidated. Hell Sparks are +24 on block versus Amulet Curse's +14 on block. Hell Sparks are hit-confirmable for either advantage on block or a combo on hit. Hell Sparks also does 13% with a meter burn and builds more meter. So what's the incentive to use Amulet Curse? Just change Amulet Curse to a safe armored wake up/reversal considering that if it hits he only going to get 9% unless he's in the corner.

BONE SHAPER SUGGESTIONS

F+2,2,1+3 (DEITY) to become +3 on hit
Besides an awesome brutality what's the actual advantage or using this move? Shinnok's opponents can jump out of the pressure/mixup that he would normally attempt to use because this moves in 0 on hit and he's not exactly the fastest character. Give him 3 frames to work with considering you normally have to give up damage to use this move.

1) 3 is a move that can counter some down pokes and starter to an uninterruptable string. It shouldn't reach far. The jip is a bad example because ji1 is too good.

2) BF3 on hit 12f recovery. The move covers 2/3 of the screen. The knock down is almost another 1/2. Shinnok's run is good (as it should be) so if you do a RC you pretty much cornered the opp. And in corner meterless launcher.

3) Armor on EX BF1. This is actually good... if you prefer it instead of ex shoulder. My suggestion would be reflect or health recover

4) boneshaper's F221+3. Shinnok has (fortunately) 6f low launcher. That alone is good, but even if it was absent, a small walk back will make some down pokes to whiff or an armor to be seen. S1 will give you a combo vs jumpers. You almost always give up dmg for standing resets. And not all of them are pressure tools, some are just for avoid dealing with wake ups

TLDR
@SaltShaker I get what you're saying, but I want at least this char to be a thinker, I was excited with ex amulet on block, RCs and stuff. Then I see a fair OH... but MB hell sparks ruined a lot for me. I mean I was actually trying to hit confirm stuff before

 

[SPY]

I'll elaborate. I'll bring the post here though

1) 3 is a move that can counter some down pokes and starter to an uninterruptable string. It shouldn't reach far. The jip is a bad example because ji1 is too good.

2) BF3 on hit 12f recovery. The move covers 2/3 of the screen. The knock down is almost another 1/2. Shinnok's run is good (as it should be) so if you do a RC you pretty much cornered the opp. And in corner meterless launcher.

3) Armor on EX BF1. This is actually good... if you prefer it instead of ex shoulder. My suggestion would be reflect or health recover

4) boneshaper's F221+3. Shinnok has (fortunately) 6f low launcher. That alone is good, but even if it was absent, a small walk back will make some down pokes to whiff or an armor to be seen. S1 will give you a combo vs jumpers. You almost always give up dmg for standing resets. And not all of them are pressure tools, some are just for avoid dealing with wake ups

TLDR
@SaltShaker I get what you're saying, but I want at least this char to be a thinker, I was excited with ex amulet on block, RCs and stuff. Then I see a fair OH... but MB hell sparks ruined a lot for me. I mean I was actually trying to hit confirm stuff before

1) Staning 3 is actually moves you back, so at max range ji2 is will whiff, coupled with non true mid 3[1]2 - it very bad string to throw out considering it's slow startup. If they remove back movement and fix whiffing I'm ok with it.
2) bf3 don't offer meterless juggle in the corner, but i don't want it to become Reptile's Elbow Dash - it might break balance of a character. If they just increase juggle height a bit so you can connect second bf3 after 312~bf3 more reliably, it gives Shinnok midscreen meterless damage option he lacks.
3) I don't think Shinnok needs armored wake up move that lead to pressure on block. It's nice to have another armored special outside of Bone Shaper variation, but I think NRS can do something interesting and creative with it.
4) Impostor Shinnok don't truly sacrifice damage for a reset, since he compensate for it with Mimicry buff. Most restand in the this game allows for true uninterruptible 50\50s after them, even if they cut total damage. As heavily disccussed in Post Mimicry thread, Shinnok don't have unreactable 50\50 with f4\b3 and after current f221+3 opponent don't even need to block anything - he can backdash, jump, poke, use armored special and unarmored fast special or just block. +3f on hit just removes poke, unarmored special and jump options so even with that f221+3 won't compete with true restands of 50\50 characters.

 

[KIllaByte]

Nothing. The character is broken with three bars of meter.

 

[Juggs]

Amulet Strike (BF1) - Make it cause a knockdown and knock back. And increase its range slightly.

MB Hellspark (DB2) - Reduce the + frames. It's too plus right now, needs nerfed. Still make it plus, just not +24 or whatever it is.

All Necromancer Specials - Reduce startup and recovery frames. Fix tracking. 10% damage increase.

 

[legion666]

I'll elaborate. I'll bring the post here though
......
4) boneshaper's F221+3. Shinnok has (fortunately) 6f low launcher. That alone is good, but even if it was absent, a small walk back will make some down pokes to whiff or an armor to be seen. S1 will give you a combo vs jumpers. You almost always give up dmg for standing resets. And not all of them are pressure tools, some are just for avoid dealing with wake ups

Not a 6 frame low, a 7 frame low- so even 6 frame pokes will beat you when you are at 0 after the standing reset in Bone Shaper.

 

[Hidan]

Not a 6 frame low, a 7 frame low- so even 6 frame pokes will beat you when you are at 0 after the standing reset in Bone Shaper.

d1, solved

About frame data... I don't know how to fix this. I can recall numbers as I learned them. @#&$ NRS

 

[SaltShaker]

I'll elaborate. I'll bring the post here though

1) 3 is a move that can counter some down pokes and starter to an uninterruptable string. It shouldn't reach far. The jip is a bad example because ji1 is too good.

2) BF3 on hit 12f recovery. The move covers 2/3 of the screen. The knock down is almost another 1/2. Shinnok's run is good (as it should be) so if you do a RC you pretty much cornered the opp. And in corner meterless launcher.

3) Armor on EX BF1. This is actually good... if you prefer it instead of ex shoulder. My suggestion would be reflect or health recover

4) boneshaper's F221+3. Shinnok has (fortunately) 6f low launcher. That alone is good, but even if it was absent, a small walk back will make some down pokes to whiff or an armor to be seen. S1 will give you a combo vs jumpers. You almost always give up dmg for standing resets. And not all of them are pressure tools, some are just for avoid dealing with wake ups

TLDR
@SaltShaker I get what you're saying, but I want at least this char to be a thinker, I was excited with ex amulet on block, RCs and stuff. Then I see a fair OH... but MB hell sparks ruined a lot for me. I mean I was actually trying to hit confirm stuff before

Yea I can see what you're saying to a certain extent. In that situation then I'd hope the Top 7-8 characters were toned done a notch. I feel like characters around Shinnok, Kano, and Ermac's toolsets should be how the game is represented, but since you have Raiden's, QC's and Erron's walking around the balance is skewed. That's why I feel either some characters should be caught up or some characters need to be brought down.

Shinnok speaking, I do think his EX Amulet needs something. With the buff to EX Sparks on block is there a single use for this move? It needs to absorb extra meter, armor, store and shoot projectiles, something to make it worth using. And I could see an argument for BF3 recovery being reduced. Maybe not to 12f, that might be a little excessive for the character's tools, but better than it is now.

I know how you feel about playing the character though. I played Kung Jin for a few days a while back and could have fallen asleep while playing and won some games against decent competition. I can't play like that lol.

 

[Hidan]

Yea I can see what you're saying to a certain extent. In that situation then I'd hope the Top 7-8 characters were toned done a notch. I feel like characters around Shinnok, Kano, and Ermac's toolsets should be how the game is represented, but since you have Raiden's, QC's and Erron's walking around the balance is skewed. That's why I feel either some characters should be caught up or some characters need to be brought down.

Shinnok speaking, I do think his EX Amulet needs something. With the buff to EX Sparks on block is there a single use for this move? It needs to absorb extra meter, armor, store and shoot projectiles, something to make it worth using. And I could see an argument for BF3 recovery being reduced. Maybe not to 12f, that might be a little excessive for the character's tools, but better than it is now.

I know how you feel about playing the character though. I played Kung Jin for a few days a while back and could have fallen asleep while playing and won some games against decent competition. I can't play like that lol.

You're the man, Shaker