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Can You React To A 18 Frame Over Head?

Reactable?

  • Yes, Sir..

    Votes: 82 31.8%
  • No, Sir..

    Votes: 176 68.2%

  • Total voters
    258

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
yeah on my headset i always have in game blasted... but like i said in the pm. my studies are showing that audio is not helping anymore than 1-2 frames less than visual. honestly there is alot that you have to visually see. like LF for example. his chainsaw attacks sound almost identical so when he cancels it would be wise to see that before he follows up.. i don't want to get to wise to listening to the audio aspect by its self

btw i only showed you 2 pages out of 600.. thank me later.. that was a long read for me.. i found there conclusion. and sifted page through page to pdf 2 small clips for ya



its also very scary that we have 72 votes for we can block 18 frame moves. when its clearly impossible according to our best doctors in the field.

shows how much you can consider valid on this site. just a thought
Yeah.. Thanx.... I figured you went through it. Didn't know it was that much though....

I personally don't think audio helps much, with the exception of things like Cyrax's low bombs.

I feel like I kan block Flash's 16 frame overhead on reaction (when I am looking for it) on my good days. If only the stream didn't malfunction at MLG, then I'd be able to show my match against DJT for some plausibility. I blocked plenty of Green Lantern's 18 frame overheads, before he switched to Flash.

I am much more sure of GL's overheads being react-able... and I think more people would agree with me on that than flash. If I didn't have the experience I would agree with you but there's no way I guessed right that much.
 

tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
I feel like I kan block Flash's 16 frame overhead on reaction (when I am looking for it) on my good days.
You're not purely reacting, you were anticipating. A soft read, scouting, whatever you want to call it. It's not a raw reaction, it's an anticipated limited stimulus that subconsciously you are readied for. 16f is theoretically possible for such things, only just though, but it's not really a raw reaction. If you want to feel good about yourself, pretend you can see the future a few frames.

The best of us from Dustloops got like... 21-22f range. I used to have 24 average, and I felt good about that.
 

LeftOverShark

Tick Throw Specialist
I think its based on reads more than reactions. Think Jax's 12 oh dp and 123 oh dp. One of the dirtiest mix ups in the game. You have to make a read.
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
For fucks sake.

That is one stimulus in a controlled environment.

If you add ANY other stimulus then it goes up. So if you have to scout a throw, delayed OH/low, etc. it all goes up.

18f is not reactable. End of Fucking story.

Edit: He also never substantiated where he got that number from.
It's cool, I guess you're the law.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
It's cool, I guess you're the law.
If you want to continue being stubborn and ignore the 5+ pages of explanations of why reacting to an 18f move when you have to consider other stimuli is impossible then go ahead.

That quote implies a 15f move is reactable. If that was the case 50/50s in MKX would ALL be reactable. That is how insane that is lol.
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
If you want to continue being stubborn and ignore the 5+ pages of explanations of why reacting to an 18f move when you have to consider other stimuli is impossible then go ahead.

That quote implies a 15f move is reactable. If that was the case 50/50s in MKX would ALL be reactable. That is how insane that is lol.
Remember you can think what you want. I can think what I want. I have not read a single post from yours nor most pages in this thread.

You don't need to fight because someone doesn't agree with you. I found something on Twitter and I put it here, big deal.
 

MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains


thats incorrect,

the actual number in milliseconds is 331.41ms
and that converts to 19.85 Frames in a 60FPS game


the first part happens in 1/4th of a second. ie 15 frames on a 60FPS game. at this point i may note that you are still not capable of moving your fingers from your brain receiving the information from visual Stimuli.

your motor cortex takes a bit longer to send the signal to your fingers to actually react to it. which adds roughly 4.8-10 frames.

19.8-25 is more like it. especially since i believe several doctors opinions that have been proven fact in several scientific studies more so than i would believe i video game player, that has zero medical degrees and would not be even capable of reading half the material that all of these Doctors can about how the brain works.

not only is that tweet absolutely incorrect but it is an insult to the Scientific world.




average reaction in frames still is and always will be: 23 frames

fastest reaction from visual stimuli is: 21 consistently. and thats with state of the art equipment.

@Airvidal
@Red Raptor


and the way i see it is none of the people on here are qualified to show any factitious studies.

from what ive herd is some have done an uncontrolled lab test to see there reaction?
i have news for some. that is not evidence.
not only would you have to have medical degrees on how the brain works to setup a lab test on how that would play out.

but lets leave that aside.

how about the game tick time inconsistencies.

hitbox inconsistencies?

frame drop inconsistencies?

how long it took for each of you to press a button.

how do you know when he pressed a button and you blocked it was that many frames.

how can you prove that you are reacting? and not anticipating a move unconsciously?

How can you prove that the game didn't change frame data for an instance?

how can you prove that the move was in fact 16 frames that specific time and the game didn't go haywire?

nothing has been answered and since it wasn't done in a controlled environment i nor should anyone else with a logical mind take that Tweet as fact.

i on the other hand have provided sound evidence that contradicts that post in every way. not only does it show that you can not block a 20 frame move with pure reaction but it proves a human can not block a 15, 16 or 18 frame move without guessing.



once again here is the test showing the results. and i can find many more for others. but its not my job, all of you should be capable of using a search engine, and determining what sites hold no credibility and which ones have a sufficient amount of medical references.

 
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Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
thats incorrect,

the actual number in milliseconds is 331.41ms
and that converts to 19.85 Frames in a 60FPS game


the first part happens in 1/4th of a second. ie 15 frames on a 60FPS game. at this point i may note that you are still not capable of moving your fingers from your brain receiving the information from visual Stimuli.

your motor cortex takes a bit longer to send the signal to your fingers to actually react to it. which adds roughly 4.8-10 frames.

19.8-25 is more like it. especially since i believe several doctors opinions that have been proven fact in several scientific studies more so than i would believe i video game player, that has zero medical degrees and would not be even capable of reading half the material that all of these Doctors can about how the brain works.

not only is that tweet absolutely incorrect but it is an insult to the Scientific world.




average reaction in frames still is and always will be: 23 frames

fastest reaction from visual stimuli is: 21 consistently. and thats with state of the art equipment.

@Airvidal
@Red Raptor


and the way i see it is none of the people on here are qualified to show any factitious studies.

from what ive herd is some have done an uncontrolled lab test to see there reaction?
i have news for some. that is not evidence.
not only would you have to have medical degrees on how the brain works to setup a lab test on how that would play out.

but lets leave that aside.

how about the game tick time inconsistencies.

hitbox inconsistencies?

frame drop inconsistencies?

how long it took for each of you to press a button.

how do you know when he pressed a button and you blocked it was that many frames.

how can you prove that you are reacting? and not anticipating a move unconsciously?

How can you prove that the game didn't change frame data for an instance?

how can you prove that the move was in fact 16 frames that specific time and the game didn't go haywire?

nothing has been answered and since it wasn't done in a controlled environment i nor should anyone else with a logical mind take that Tweet as fact.

i on the other hand have provided sound evidence that contradicts that post in every way. not only does it show that you can not block a 20 frame move with pure reaction but it proves a human can not block a 15, 16 or 18 frame move without guessing.



once again here is the test showing the results. and i can find many more for others. but its not my job, all of you should be capable of using a search engine, and determining what sites hold no credibility and which ones have a sufficient amount of medical references.
Hey, you write better than I gave you credit for. Nice answer.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I'd like to propose a question to you guys, Alien has an interesting 50, his F134 string hits Mid Mid Low and can be cancelled into a 17f OH launcher before or after the low hit, so on paper, its a true 50/50 launcher...

HOWEVER the Overhead needs meter to launch, so I'm asking you - you don't have to react to the move itself, you block low, and react to the nothing but the meterburn flash by blocking overhead, as you know that as soon you know prior as he burns meter he can only combo off an OH so you are waiting for the flash... can this be reacted to in 17f? I'm going to test with my friend later on, but I'd like to hear some opinions / theories from you guys
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I'd like to propose a question to you guys, Alien has an interesting 50, his F134 string hits Mid Mid Low and can be cancelled into a 17f OH launcher before or after the low hit, so on paper, its a true 50/50 launcher...

HOWEVER the Overhead needs meter to launch, so I'm asking you - you don't have to react to the move itself, you block low, and react to the nothing but the meterburn flash by blocking overhead, as you know that as soon you know prior as he burns meter he can only combo off an OH so you are waiting for the flash... can this be reacted to in 17f? I'm going to test with my friend later on, but I'd like to hear some opinions / theories from you guys
He could also be doing the MB low option(tail grab) so probably not.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
He could also be doing the MB low option(tail grab) so probably not.
the point is only one goes to combo, there is still a mix-up there, but its hardly worth risking a meter on a punishable special like that

the question is, can you react to the meterburn flash in time to block overhead
 

AeWhole

Noob
First off ESG Jagged is right everyone. Sorry. You're not super human you are just human.

I think what this thread is forgetting is some psychology though. I can also say that twitch muscle reactions are faster that 18 frames much faster. Anyone who has played test your might on the hardest difficulty can tell you they can push many times the buttons needed to block within just 60 frames. It's how the spinal cord sends motor function feedbacks for heavily repeated tasks. However, precision drops dramatically with this twitch sort of muscle reaction.

Without getting into any hard science I will explain why 18 frame overheads can be reactable. It's all about operant conditioning. When SonicFox did this flash game I am actually curious to know how long he played it to get the 19 frame reaction. http://www.teyah.net/MilliaBlocker_v0.3.swf

Operant conditioning is a proven fact. Basically I think 18 frame reactions do exist based on the aforementioned.

So here's how the science I am thinking works. There is 4 different categories. Fighting games have them all. There is positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, positive punishment, and negative punishment. I'll give a short example of what each is in terms of fighting games.

Being dealt large amounts of damage that could only be prevented at a single moment in the very short past. It leaves the person being dealt damage some time to dwell and think about what they should do next. This is positive punishment. The opponent to the player receiving damage is less likely to repeat previous behavior because they don't want to be punished again.
Sometimes positive punishment will be ineffective over time also it may make the person receiving the punishment get a hopeless feeling and want to quit everything. (Fighting games only I hope. Don't quit life because you got 60% combo'd :c)

Negative punishment is when an opponent denies something that would have actually hit under normal circumstances. I like to call these the "hard" reads. Behavior or regular pokes and starters that normally hit on opponents get denied and "ignored". It would be that throw that ALWAYS hits after the Kung Lao combo that just got teched. Negative punishment is very powerful and creates a defensive behavior almost immediately unless the opponent is trained otherwise. Basically, any time you perform a behavior you usually do and it is immediately denied or ignored by the opponent you may notice a feeling to want to be defensive. You may also see it in other players online who throw out a heavily unsafe move that gets blocked like a boss.

Positive reinforcement is when you behave a certain way and you are rewarded for it by being able to do the combo you spent so long practicing. Like jump-in's they are a big one with untrained players. Jump-in's are heavily rewarded in this game as they are also how you maximise damage. Basically you performed a move and you got to win the game or deal a serious amount of damage. You also get a relief feeling for a little while as well as having plenty of time to think about your next move or their next move. This is the one that most every living thing pays attention to the most and it's the easiest thing to train yourself with.

Negative reinforcement is the last one and I sometimes have a hard time understanding it. So I will describe it the best I can in fighting game terms basically there is a behavior or move that is happening that your opponent is doing or you are doing. Such as a jump-in. You jump-in and the opponent uppercuts you viscously. Then you don't jump-in now your opponent doesn't uppercut you. You stop jumping in for the rest of the round or you stop jumping in as much because of the uppercut. You have now been trained by your opponent to not jump in. Like a dog.

Okay so why did I say all that? It's because behaviors in fighting games are automatic. Once they are practiced you don't think about them actively. It's muscle memory. Being in that, "in the zone", state of mind your behaviors are what you and your opponents made them.

Example:
You spent twelve hours collectively in the lab against Raiden's overhead that is highly punishable. (I call it happy hands) You had it perform random moves and combos training recording and changed the recording every hour. You only looked for the over head the entire match and blocked everything else maybe except for some of Raiden's other over heads. You rewarded yourself through positive punishment and negative reinforcement. There was a behavior you were performing and now that behavior is much less likely to occur. Blocking the overhead got you a full combo you practiced and not blocking it made you have to restart the dummy. Getting hit by Raiden's overhead starter is now blocked at a much higher rate because you have used psychology to prevent poor behavior against Raiden. MAYBE you did what pro players do which is play against another pro player that you want match-up knowledge on a first to ten. They spent time training each other on what behaviors to be repeated and other behaviors that are now less likely to occur.


Now the 18 frame reactable overhead! You can block it on reaction because you aren't thinking about it anymore you just do it or you make a sick read like everyone else is saying. I am curious whether or not if I spent twelve hours playing that flash game I might be able to get my times down to 18 or 19 frames. It is truly random but the human body picks up on a lot of subtle cues as long as there is intense focus, a proper diet, and a regular sleep schedule.

What I just said happens only when you are in the state of mind that you aren't readily thinking about every action. All actions you are making must be "auto-pilot" or "in the zone" actions. This isn't me making up some shit. Operant conditioning exists and can be used to literally train anyone and any animal.

Anyways, that's my scientific theory on how I think hard to reactables are blocked consistently. I think there is enough psychology to back my statements here. Also, There is some good information here for you to train yourself to block anything. It's a lot of practice and a lot of CORRECT practicing to get this self conditioning to work properly though. Also the tip that people say practice saying things out loud before you do them this is a way to snap back and forth between the "zone" and thinking about your actions again quickly while still being able to compete and react to your opponent.

Final Edit:
Whether you believe me or not I got a 19.5 reaction after I played the flash game a couple more times. Collectively, for about an hour or so. So much fucking time wasted haha.
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I always test really fast reaction times in tests like these and I can teach anyone to do it.

Even when you think the choice of what to do, like press a particular button, has already been chosen for you - your human mind still needs to choose and that takes time. The only way to speed it up is to remove your human mind from the equation and access your instinctual mind. The only way to do that is to remove the idea that your reacting and just act. Don't shut down your senses, but don't wait for any visual cue either. Relax and feel when it is time. Then, just act.

Your action will have directly coincided with the visual cue.

Think not of the time, just record it. If it carries meaning, your human brain is back in the equation - and you'll have to start over to do it again.
 
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MadeOfMetal

Kenshi Srubtastic,Cyrax, Special Forces Mains
I'd like to propose a question to you guys, Alien has an interesting 50, his F134 string hits Mid Mid Low and can be cancelled into a 17f OH launcher before or after the low hit, so on paper, its a true 50/50 launcher...

HOWEVER the Overhead needs meter to launch, so I'm asking you - you don't have to react to the move itself, you block low, and react to the nothing but the meterburn flash by blocking overhead, as you know that as soon you know prior as he burns meter he can only combo off an OH so you are waiting for the flash... can this be reacted to in 17f? I'm going to test with my friend later on, but I'd like to hear some opinions / theories from you guys
good question. i would say, only with prediction. the flash would be yet another form of visual stimuli.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
I always test really fast reaction times in tests like these and I can teach anyone to do it.

Even when you think the choice of what to do, like press a particular button, has already been chosen for you - your human mind still needs to choose and that takes time. The only way to speed it up is to remove your human mind from the equation and access your instinctual mind. The only way to do that is to remove the idea that your reacting and just act. Don't shut down your senses, but don't wait for any visual cue either. Relax and feel when it is time. Then, just act.

Your action will have directly coincided with the visual cue.

Think not of the time, just record it. If it carries meaning, your human brain is back in the equation - and you'll have to start over to do it again.
lol wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial button arts
 

Yak

Noob
My reaction time is cheeks but I can still manage to react to a 19 frame once in a while, but for the most part nah.
 

Red Reaper

The Hyrax Whisperer
You're not purely reacting, you were anticipating. A soft read, scouting, whatever you want to call it. It's not a raw reaction, it's an anticipated limited stimulus that subconsciously you are readied for. 16f is theoretically possible for such things, only just though, but it's not really a raw reaction. If you want to feel good about yourself, pretend you can see the future a few frames.

The best of us from Dustloops got like... 21-22f range. I used to have 24 average, and I felt good about that.
I agree, but I feel like Anticipation is half the game... I kan see what people mean though.

Either way. Anything faster than 20 is not that easy to block, so it's kind of up to the player how much they want to practice looking out for it and blocking it, because you have to get used to the animation too.

In some match ups, like vs GL in Injustice, it's krucial....