Question - Erron Black Can Someone Help Me Learn To Punish Better?

[Taxman]

Me defense with EB is pretty good but I can't seem to punish effectively. When I got to start a punish string I'll end up just coming out with a quick 11 jab and that it and then I get punished in return because I freeze wondering wtf just happened. So what can I do to become more effective not just with EB punishing but with all characters. Should I try to punish more with a 211, or B3. Should I try doing 11 into a slide or sand grenade? I think my problem might be doing 11 then trying to do F13, but they can't cancel or string together right? Anyways any help is appreciated for a lowly pleb noob like me.

 

[ericscissorkick]

Go into practice and find your fastest striNg. Start up is low and block advantage is low.

This would most likely be errons F 132

Or his B 3 2 UP 1.

 

[Taxman]

Go into practice and find your fastest striNg. Start up is low and block advantage is low.

This would most likely be errons F 132

Or his B 3 2 UP 1.

Is a string a group of combos like F13, BF4, Run Cancel, B32U1.

Or is it simple like a Normal Combo, 11.

 

[MadPropz101]

Is a string a group of combos like F13, BF4, Run Cancel, B32U1.

Or is it simple like a Normal Combo, 11.

A combo is a group of strings.

 

[wsj515]

Your optimal punish often depends at how far away you are and how negative they are, but that might be a little more complicated than what you are looking for.

In most cases a decent punish would be 112, RC 2112xxdbf2, which is universal across EB's variations.

you can also punish with 21122, with 2112xxdb4 - combo in outlaw, 2112xxdb2 - combo in marksman, and 2112xxEXbf3 in gunslinger (xxbf4 or xxSOS for meterless)

 

[HaZed]

Me defense with EB is pretty good but I can't seem to punish effectively. When I got to start a punish string I'll end up just coming out with a quick 11 jab and that it and then I get punished in return because I freeze wondering wtf just happened. So what can I do to become more effective not just with EB punishing but with all characters. Should I try to punish more with a 211, or B3. Should I try doing 11 into a slide or sand grenade? I think my problem might be doing 11 then trying to do F13, but they can't cancel or string together right? Anyways any help is appreciated for a lowly pleb noob like me.

Just to get the timing down i would recommend using 11db4 which is the sand move. This gives a second to put the rest of your combo in, whether it be f13, or b32u1. I should mention that this is for the outlaw variation. My punishes are usually

11~db4, f13~MBbf3, nj2, 21122~dbf2 = somewhere around 30%(1bar of meter)
11~db4, b32u1, nj2, RC, 21122~dbf2 = 27%

Once you get really comfortable with that and learn the frame data of your other strings you can start to punish starting the combos with f13, 21122, or b32, because all of that transfers into sand blast. Hopefully this helps :0.

 

[Taxman]

Just to get the timing down i would recommend using 11db4 which is the sand move. This gives a second to put the rest of your combo in, whether it be f13, or b32u1. I should mention that this is for the outlaw variation. My punishes are usually

11~db4, f13~MBbf3, nj2, 21122~dbf2 = somewhere around 30%(1bar of meter)
11~db4, b32u1, nj2, RC, 21122~dbf2 = 27%

Once you get really comfortable with that and learn the frame data of your other strings you can start to punish starting the combos with f13, 21122, or b32, because all of that transfers into sand blast. Hopefully this helps :0.

Thanks

What does the M in Mbf3 mean?

 

[HaZed]

MB = meter-burn, sorry its an Injustice term.

 

[Taxman]

A combo is a group of strings.

A string is 11, or 211.

a Combo would be 11, DB4, B321U1, etcetcetc?

 

[MadPropz101]

A string is 11, or 211.

a Combo would be 11, DB4, B321U1, etcetcetc?

Exactly.

 

[Taxman]

Exactly.

Thanks you very much

 

[GLoRToR]

Me defense with EB is pretty good but I can't seem to punish effectively. When I got to start a punish string I'll end up just coming out with a quick 11 jab and that it and then I get punished in return because I freeze wondering wtf just happened. So what can I do to become more effective not just with EB punishing but with all characters. Should I try to punish more with a 211, or B3. Should I try doing 11 into a slide or sand grenade? I think my problem might be doing 11 then trying to do F13, but they can't cancel or string together right? Anyways any help is appreciated for a lowly pleb noob like me.

The easiest punish after blocking is throw and it works rather well in online matches. The reason why I recommend throw to absolute beginners is that it teaches you the importance of reaction.
The easiest whiff punish is a fireball but preferably a stun that you can combo off of, such as Sub Zero's freeze for example.
When you are comfortably throwing as a punish, you can start to look into scary stuff.

 

[Taxman]

The easiest punish after blocking is throw and it works rather well in online matches. The reason why I recommend throw to absolute beginners is that it teaches you the importance of reaction.
The easiest whiff punish is a fireball but preferably a stun that you can combo off of, such as Sub Zero's freeze for example.
When you are comfortably throwing as a punish, you can start to look into scary stuff.

Thanks for the tip, I'll try this, hopefully it teaches me quick reaction.

 

[GLoRToR]

Thanks for the tip, I'll try this, hopefully it teaches me quick reaction.

It does.
It can be daunting to execute a full combo as a response when you're not even pressing the first button as fast as you still could. Eventually you'll have reaction as a second nature and then you can work on turning whole combos or even setups into a second nature as if it was one fluent reaction.

 

[Taxman]

It does.
It can be daunting to execute a full combo as a response when you're not even pressing the first button as fast as you still could. Eventually you'll have reaction as a second nature and then you can work on turning whole combos or even setups into a second nature as if it was one fluent reaction.

When is a good time to use a Down string like D1, D2, D3 or D4. These are good to put a little distance between you and your opponent right? As Erron is it good to D1 then F13 and start your combo if it lands?

 

[GLoRToR]

When is a good time to use a Down string like D1, D2, D3 or D4. These are good to put a little distance between you and your opponent right? As Erron is it good to D1 then F13 and start your combo if it lands?

Think in frames for that one.

D1
Hypothetical string has 123 as a command. Opponent is attacking you with it.
Let's say 1 is a mid and it comes out in 8 frames, +20 on hit, -20 on block so you want to block that.
Let's say there is a stupid gaping 20 frame gap before 2, an overhead comes out that links into low launcher 3.
What do you do? You blow the motherfucker up before he overheads into a low launcher.

In realistic scenarios in a slight gap such as 1,23 it's the comma where you poke out. In certain cases of pressure you wait between strings, or armour out before the ~cancel (12~special). Where you can poke you can armour and vice versa. Just try to d1 all the time even if you get blown up, so you get a feel for it.
Note that d1 doesn't always put you at advantage and that in a game with armour such as this one, you can get blown up for it. Heck they can even anticipate and njp/njk you for it but the gist of it is this:
Frame gaps let you poke or armour through. Generally when that happens, the ball is in your park.

D4
If D1 is the stop sign, D4 is the speed bumper. It rarely lets you get out of pressure but very often works as a spacing-and-pacing tool with a pseudo-cancel (not a combo but a very slight gap) into specials. Reptile's D4~Dash used to be infamous for example. Or Mileena's D4~shenanigans, in MK9.
Downfourality is even a player's nickname, that's how good it is.

D3
Depends on the character. Cassie's is a bit like her D1 except it's got better range and slower startup. Erron's I've never seen used so can't comment on it, and then there is Kitana's, that's only good on the beach to pass the stray beachball back while she's lotioning up her shoulders.

 

[Taxman]

Think in frames for that one.

D1
Hypothetical string has 123 as a command. Opponent is attacking you with it.
Let's say 1 is a mid and it comes out in 8 frames, +20 on hit, -20 on block so you want to block that.
Let's say there is a stupid gaping 20 frame gap before 2, an overhead comes out that links into low launcher 3.
What do you do? You blow the motherfucker up before he overheads into a low launcher.

In realistic scenarios in a slight gap such as 1,23 it's the comma where you poke out. In certain cases of pressure you wait between strings, or armour out before the ~cancel (12~special). Where you can poke you can armour and vice versa. Just try to d1 all the time even if you get blown up, so you get a feel for it.
Note that d1 doesn't always put you at advantage and that in a game with armour such as this one, you can get blown up for it. Heck they can even anticipate and njp/njk you for it but the gist of it is this:
Frame gaps let you poke or armour through. Generally when that happens, the ball is in your park.

D4
If D1 is the stop sign, D4 is the speed bumper. It rarely lets you get out of pressure but very often works as a spacing-and-pacing tool with a pseudo-cancel (not a combo but a very slight gap) into specials. Reptile's D4~Dash used to be infamous for example. Or Mileena's D4~shenanigans, in MK9.
Downfourality is even a player's nickname, that's how good it is.

D3
Depends on the character. Cassie's is a bit like her D1 except it's got better range and slower startup. Erron's I've never seen used so can't comment on it, and then there is Kitana's, that's only good on the beach to pass the stray beachball back while she's lotioning up her shoulders.

One thing I've always been confused about:

So a string of 123 has a start up of 10 let's say. Now that startup is in relation to the 3 of 123 correct? To find the start up of 1 and 2 you would go to basic and find 1, that's the start of for 1 of 123 and then you find 2's startup, would the entire string come out as a 30 start up if each hit has a start up of 10?

1- 10 start up
2- 10 start up
123- 10 startup

Total start up 30?

And how d oyou know when a string has a gap, just by messing around with different strings and finding ones that have gaps or are there tell tale signs In the frame data?

 

[wsj515]

Think in frames for that one.

D1
Hypothetical string has 123 as a command. Opponent is attacking you with it.
Let's say 1 is a mid and it comes out in 8 frames, +20 on hit, -20 on block so you want to block that.
Let's say there is a stupid gaping 20 frame gap before 2, an overhead comes out that links into low launcher 3.
What do you do? You blow the motherfucker up before he overheads into a low launcher.

In realistic scenarios in a slight gap such as 1,23 it's the comma where you poke out. In certain cases of pressure you wait between strings, or armour out before the ~cancel (12~special). Where you can poke you can armour and vice versa. Just try to d1 all the time even if you get blown up, so you get a feel for it.
Note that d1 doesn't always put you at advantage and that in a game with armour such as this one, you can get blown up for it. Heck they can even anticipate and njp/njk you for it but the gist of it is this:
Frame gaps let you poke or armour through. Generally when that happens, the ball is in your park.

D4
If D1 is the stop sign, D4 is the speed bumper. It rarely lets you get out of pressure but very often works as a spacing-and-pacing tool with a pseudo-cancel (not a combo but a very slight gap) into specials. Reptile's D4~Dash used to be infamous for example. Or Mileena's D4~shenanigans, in MK9.
Downfourality is even a player's nickname, that's how good it is.

D3
Depends on the character. Cassie's is a bit like her D1 except it's got better range and slower startup. Erron's I've never seen used so can't comment on it, and then there is Kitana's, that's only good on the beach to pass the stray beachball back while she's lotioning up her shoulders.

For EB specifically, d1 should be used as stated above. d2 is our only reliable anti-air, and even then its not that great, if you read a jump its often better to just back dash and punish. EB's d3 and d4 aren't the greatest, a lot of characters have much farther reaching versions and better specials to cancel into like stated above. I mostly use d3xxdbf2 as a tick throw, meaning the dbf2 will hit whether they block the d3 or not (just be wary because there are ways to punish this). I haven't really messed around with d3/d4 into SOS in gunslinger, thats the only other use I can really think of.

In regards to your startup question, the startup only matters for the 1 in a 123 string.

 

[carrion4worm]

Simple erron for you to get started...112f4. Maybe 18% or so

 

[GLoRToR]

One thing I've always been confused about:

So a string of 123 has a start up of 10 let's say. Now that startup is in relation to the 3 of 123 correct? To find the start up of 1 and 2 you would go to basic and find 1, that's the start of for 1 of 123 and then you find 2's startup, would the entire string come out as a 30 start up if each hit has a start up of 10?

1- 10 start up
2- 10 start up
123- 10 startup

Total start up 30?

And how d oyou know when a string has a gap, just by messing around with different strings and finding ones that have gaps or are there tell tale signs In the frame data?

Telltale signs are typically after you've played for a while, but eventually you can feel the weight of a string on your block. Some are still deceptive, mind.
Okay let's stick to the 123 example. Let's say it's a jab, axe kick, backflip kick.

1 (sM, ST) i8, r15, h20, -20b. -> This means 1 is a standing mid stagger, takes 8 frames for the fist to hit you, 15 for the arm to be retracted and be able to perform any other move to follow, gives you a 20 frame advantage on hit (the enemy will recoil for 20 frames), and is -20 on block so very unsafe.
2 (sOH) i15, r4, h40, 0b, -> This means 2 is an overhead so can only be blocked standing. Takes 15 frames for the axe kick to come down at the opponent, 4 frames for the foot to be back on the ground so that you can perform the next move, the enemy recoils for a whoppin' 40 frames if hit by it, and is 0 on block so safe to end the string with.
3 (sL, LA) i2, r30, h60, -30b -> Standing Low, LAunches, you get the rest of the picture.
Now you can check if that string cancels after 1.

Let's say we also have an armoured special to go with it, that's a headbutt which leads into a hard knockdown. Basically, the guy gets headbutted and faceplants. This hits overhead. Let's call it HB for Headbutt.
HB (SPEC, OH [~ex A]) i3, r70, h80, -8b.

And you are playing the same character whose d1 is i6, r8, h12, 0b.

Let's do work. Attacker performs 1,23
You can d1 where?
After 1, but not after 2 because not only are you blocking standing but the guy is even though neutral on block, is about to hit you with an i2 low launcher or an i3 overhead. You have to guess whether you'll block low or high, or you can risk armouring out after the 3 because if he doesn't realise that landing the 3 on a block is unsafe, the risk-reward is tipped against him.
Hope this sheds some light.

You should really go to youtube and watch the street fighter tutorial videos on fighting game fundamentals though.

 

[Taxman]

In regards to your startup question, the startup only matters for the 1 in a 123 string.

Do you mind explaining that more, I still doesn't really understand?

So does that mean I only need to worry about 1's start up, so go to basic, find 1, 1's start up in 10, then take 123, it's start up is 10, so the full thing will be a 10 start up? or literally I just find 1, 1's is 10, the start up is 10, but then what does 123 start up mean.

Also how do you know which strings have gaps, is there a tell tale sign in frame data or do you just have to find them by messing around with various strings?

 

[Taxman]

Telltale signs are typically after you've played for a while, but eventually you can feel the weight of a string on your block. Some are still deceptive, mind.
Okay let's stick to the 123 example. Let's say it's a jab, axe kick, backflip kick.

1 (sM, ST) i8, r15, h20, -20b. -> This means 1 is a standing mid stagger, takes 8 frames for the fist to hit you, 15 for the arm to be retracted and be able to perform any other move to follow, gives you a 20 frame advantage on hit (the enemy will recoil for 20 frames), and is -20 on block so very unsafe.
2 (sOH) i15, r4, h40, 0b, -> This means 2 is an overhead so can only be blocked standing. Takes 15 frames for the axe kick to come down at the opponent, 4 frames for the foot to be back on the ground so that you can perform the next move, the enemy recoils for a whoppin' 40 frames if hit by it, and is 0 on block so safe to end the string with.
3 (sL, LA) i2, r30, h60, -30b -> Standing Low, LAunches, you get the rest of the picture.
Now you can check if that string cancels after 1.

Let's say we also have an armoured special to go with it, that's a headbutt which leads into a hard knockdown. Basically, the guy gets headbutted and faceplants. This hits overhead. Let's call it HB for Headbutt.
HB (SPEC, OH [~ex A]) i3, r70, h80, -8b.

And you are playing the same character whose d1 is i6, r8, h12, 0b.

Let's do work. Attacker performs 1,23
You can d1 where?
After 1, but not after 2 because not only are you blocking standing but the guy is even though neutral on block, is about to hit you with an i2 low launcher or an i3 overhead. You have to guess whether you'll block low or high, or you can risk armouring out after the 3 because if he doesn't realise that landing the 3 on a block is unsafe, the risk-reward is tipped against him.
Hope this sheds some light.

You should really go to youtube and watch the street fighter tutorial videos on fighting game fundamentals though.

I appreciate your input but unfortunately I'm still lost, I don't understand where the SM, ST, sOH, and sL, LA comes from. I understand what they mean except for the (s) part in the beginning but I don't understand where they come from or how you got them or how to find them in actual strings that aren't made up for example purposes. Since they are strings and you're not pressing one, then the other, then the other after you go neutral. I'm very confused how to find the actual frame data of a string from what I read the string frame data is just for the final hit, then how do you find the frame for the other two hits 1 and 2, and if there is a gap from 1,23 you just find this after playing against it and noticing it?

Sorry if it seems like I'm just too stupid to understand I'm brand new to the FG scene. Thanks for your valuable input and relentless help though.

and I will check out SF fundamentals.

 

[wsj515]

Do you mind explaining that more, I still doesn't really understand?

So does that mean I only need to worry about 1's start up, so go to basic, find 1, 1's start up in 10, then take 123, it's start up is 10, so the full thing will be a 10 start up? or literally I just find 1, 1's is 10, the start up is 10, but then what does 123 start up mean.

Also how do you know which strings have gaps, is there a tell tale sign in frame data or do you just have to find them by messing around with various strings?

To find the startup for any string, just look at the startup for the first normal in the string. If it starts with 1, look at 1, if it starts with b4, look at b4, etc. When looking at advantage on hit or on block for a string, you must look at the string, not the final normal in the string, so for 123 you must look at 123 and not 3. I would give an example specific to erron so it would be easier to understand, but I'm at work and can't find his frame data online.

As for gaps in strings, there might be a way to find them in the frame data, but I find it easiest to just go into practice mode against tempest kung lao, set AI to always block, turn on reversal mode, and set reversal to his exspin. Then you just perform each string on lao, if there is a gap you will get hit.

You should really watch some video on youtube about FG fundamentals though, the visuals will really help.

 

[GLoRToR]

I will check out SF fundamentals.

Start with frame data and go from there.

 

[Taxman]

To find the startup for any string, just look at the startup for the first normal in the string. If it starts with 1, look at 1, if it starts with b4, look at b4, etc. When looking at advantage on hit or on block for a string, you must look at the string, not the final normal in the string, so for 123 you must look at 123 and not 3. I would give an example specific to erron so it would be easier to understand, but I'm at work and can't find his frame data online.

As for gaps in strings, there might be a way to find them in the frame data, but I find it easiest to just go into practice mode against tempest kung lao, set AI to always block, turn on reversal mode, and set reversal to his exspin. Then you just perform each string on lao, if there is a gap you will get hit.

You should really watch some video on youtube about FG fundamentals though, the visuals will really help.

Do you go against kung lao because that is who you play as and you want to see what you can do to gaps and then play as the person you are trying to find gaps on?

OK SO, If I'm Erron Black and I have a F132 string, so find the startup I find F1 in basic and it's start up is let's say 10. That is the start up of F132? So for the actual F132 string let's say the start up is 13, but does that relate to? For Hit advantage I just look at the string I don't have to worry about F1, or 2 or 3, just the whole string the only thing that I'm looking at F1 for is start up?

(Also I'm assuming this only relates to strings and not specials since they are 2 or more directional and then a button press which there are no start ups up directions because they are all probably close to 1 frame?)

Sorry it's taking me so long to understand and I'll check out those videos after work.