General/Other - Kano Breakdown of Kano's Commando and Cybernetic Variations

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I came to ask something similar to this.

If you're blocking a string can Kano cancel into MB grab? Because if so, 9/10 you're gonna eat that 25%.

how so?

people will simply learn to hold up during his block strings and let go of block when they see the animation i would think.

This is how grapplers typically work.

 

[Konqrr]

Plus (correct me if I'm wrong) from what I've read he doesnt have an overhead so when pressured vs Kano you have no reason to stand block at all really as he has a low launcher string and a high grab.. sounds super meter dependant to open people up with MB grabs which they can backdash out of. I'm just speculating obviously but still, got me soft AF.

If previous MK games are any sort of example, if you are in crouch block it takes you more frames to come out of it and jump. So crouch blocking opens you up more for things like command grabs.

how so?

people will simply learn to hold up during his block strings and let go of block when they see the animation i would think.

This is how grapplers typically work.

Then you might eat a low starter to combo. You would have to block low first then hold up and block releasing when you see the animation. If Kano has any sort of pressure with his knee as stated in the OP, then this severely complicates things.

I am 100% against canceling normals into command grabs... it is the dumbest thing ever. Make them unblockable but not able to cancel into them OR if you can cancel into them then it should whiff every time if the canceled move was blocked.

NRS command grab characters... fucking dumb yolo pos

I am super salty thinking about Commando Kano and the potential of Goro. Fuck....... I will make it my life mission to create tech to completely destroy these characters and grind them to dust.

 

[SaltShaker]

how so?

people will simply learn to hold up during his block strings and let go of block when they see the animation i would think.

This is how grapplers typically work.

It depends on the speed and frames of the strings and moves. If they are good enough, you'd literally have to be guessing in advance to escape. Also, there's the risk of him canceling on the 2nd hit of the string instead of the 3rd, or vice versa. If there's enough advantage on his pressure or he mixes it up you'll get hit with a low starter trying to hold up to release block and jump on reaction or the grab itself.

You'll be forced to guess what you'll think he'll do and hope to not guess wrong at best. It would be a nightmare if he could do it.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

If previous MK games are any sort of example, if you are in crouch block it takes you more frames to come out of it and jump. So crouch blocking opens you up more for things like command grabs.



Then you might eat a low starter to combo. You would have to block low first then hold up and block releasing when you see the animation. If Kano has any sort of pressure with his knee as stated in the OP, then this severely complicates things.

I am 100% against canceling normals into command grabs... it is the dumbest thing ever. Make them unblockable but not able to cancel into them OR if you can cancel into them then it should whiff every time if the canceled move was blocked.

NRS command grab characters... fucking dumb yolo pos

I am super salty thinking about Commando Kano and the potential of Goro. Fuck....... I will make it my life mission to create tech to completely destroy these characters and grind them to dust.

i get that

but I don't understand how it is any different in any other game. KI has the same stuff... and i'm pretty sure Gief is played in the same manner no? I mean... a frame trap into a command grab is very similar to a string cancelled into a command grab no?

Or am I off on my thinking here?

@SaltShaker taggin ya cuz my response covers you too.

 

[Phosferrax]

With meter, can Kano cancel a normal or string into EX command grab that you have to guess to get out of? Does he have stupid Grundy shit with meter is what I'm asking.

I couldn't find any that worked as tick throws, but I didn't have a long time to lab stuff nor did I come close to trying all his strings, just the obvious ones. I can't even remember if I tried mb throws as tick throws, probably not. There were some strings where the normal throws were blocked, so I assume that some work as tick throws.

 

[haketh]

i get that

but I don't understand how it is any different in any other game. KI has the same stuff... and i'm pretty sure Gief is played in the same manner no? I mean... a frame trap into a command grab is very similar to a string cancelled into a command grab no?

Or am I off on my thinking here?

@SaltShaker taggin ya cuz my response covers you too.

No you're correct, canceling into CMD grabs is common, it just works weird in NRS games because jumping from crouch takes way to fucking long. Hell jumping in general has weird startup issues hence whey their were some guaranteed Bane CMD Grab setups (@Doombawkz correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[SaltShaker]

i get that

but I don't understand how it is any different in any other game. KI has the same stuff... and i'm pretty sure Gief is played in the same manner no? I mean... a frame trap into a command grab is very similar to a string cancelled into a command grab no?

Or am I off on my thinking here?

@SaltShaker taggin ya cuz my response covers you too.

Because a block string into a free 25% armored grab is different.

You're risking either blocking the 1st hit of the string but getting hit into combo by the 2nd hit, being hit by the 3rd hit, being grabbed after the 2nd hit for 25% clean, being grabbed after the 3rd hit, or being hit with a low starter after the 3rd hit.

All of that would be in play after 1 blocked hit starts a string. Frame traps of Gief and Bane are annoying, but that's grappler life. If Kano is cancelling strings whenever he wants into an armored 25% grab, that will be hella beastly to say the least.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

No you're correct, canceling into CMD grabs is common, it just works weird in NRS games because jumping from crouch takes way to fucking long. Hell jumping in general has weird startup issues hence whey their were some guaranteed Bane CMD Grab setups (@Doombawkz correct me if I'm wrong).

Right but that is with back to block as well

MKx will have the block button... which honestly removes alot of the grief. That was my point honestly.

The command grab off strings is kinda moot if you can simply hold UP and block at the same time.

Tick throws are apart of a grappler... and always will be. The strings won't be allowed to give free unblockable command grabs (well... i'd hope not at least).

The only way I can see this even being a huge problem is if he has like... a low/low string or a low/mid/low/low type string. Where you actually have to block low and anticipate the throw.

once again tagging @SaltShaker so i didn't have to double quote

 

[Konqrr]

i get that

but I don't understand how it is any different in any other game. KI has the same stuff... and i'm pretty sure Gief is played in the same manner no? I mean... a frame trap into a command grab is very similar to a string cancelled into a command grab no?

Or am I off on my thinking here?

@SaltShaker taggin ya cuz my response covers you too.

I don't know anything about KI as I've only played it once.

In SF (and most other fgs) you can do tick throws where you do a normal or something to create a frame trap then do the command grab. The full animation of the normal and its recovery are done. In NRS games, you actually cancel the normal into the command grab which removes the recovery of any move completely and the move comes out forcing a guess situation.

 

[haketh]

I don't know anything about KI as I've only played it once.

In SF (and most other fgs) you can do tick throws where you do a normal or something to create a frame trap then do the command grab. The full animation of the normal and its recovery are done. In NRS games, you actually cancel the normal into the command grab which removes the recovery of any move completely and the move comes out forcing a guess situation.

You can cancel normals into CMD Grabs in SF, KOF, & well every 2D FG I can think of honestly. The difference is the way NRS games handle blockstun, how slow CMD grabs are, & how slow jump startup is. Due to all of these it can lead to CMD Grab guaranteed setups unlike other games.

 

[Konqrr]

You can cancel normals into CMD Grabs in SF, KOF, & well every 2D FG I can think of honestly. The difference is the way NRS games handle blockstun, how slow CMD grabs are, & how slow jump startup is. Due to all of these it can lead to CMD Grab guaranteed setups unlike other games.

Yes, but have you ever tried to cancel a cmd grab from a normal in SF with Gief? It whiffs every time and is almost like the game is saying "you fucked up, eat a combo now".

The way it is done in NRS games is very strong. All it takes is for them to touch you, block or hit, and you get grabbed then they do it again on wakeup due to armor. It's really stupid.

 

[haketh]

Yes, but have you ever tried to cancel a cmd grab from a normal in SF with Gief? It whiffs every time and is almost like the game is saying "you fucked up, eat a combo now".

The way it is done in NRS games is very strong. All it takes is for them to touch you, block or hit, and you get grabbed then they do it again on wakeup due to armor. It's really stupid.

Oh I gotcha, misread your post, yeah I agree with you. NRS REALLY needs to look at how they handle all the things that leads to CMD Grabs working the way they do in their games.

 

[SaltShaker]

Right but that is with back to block as well

MKx will have the block button... which honestly removes alot of the grief. That was my point honestly.

The command grab off strings is kinda moot if you can simply hold UP and block at the same time.

Tick throws are apart of a grappler... and always will be. The strings won't be allowed to give free unblockable command grabs (well... i'd hope not at least).

The only way I can see this even being a huge problem is if he has like... a low/low string or a low/mid/low/low type string. Where you actually have to block low and anticipate the throw.

once again tagging @SaltShaker so i didn't have to double quote

Nah not saying that tick throws are a problem or a normal into a throw set up is. That's pretty much what grapplers do. I played Vanessa and Wolf in VF5 so I know what you're saying here and agree.

Say for example since Kano has a low starter say one is a low/mid/mid 3 hit string with good start up and recovery. Many Kano players would use the string. Think of it in the sense of competitive play, not robotics like punishing 1 frame gaps into full combos 10/10 type logic some people use. No one jumps out of Bane or Grundy's grabs out of reaction, it's on read because you're guessing it's coming so you're already jumping. You'd be hit with bf2 if you tried jumping expecting a Bane grab for example. Imagine if he was able to do what we're discussing. Now back to Kano, say you block the 1st hit, what do you do on the 2nd hit?

-Still block? Kano can cancel the string directly into MB Armor grab you for 25%. You cannot jump fast enough unless the blocked second hit had horrible, horrible recovery or the grab was ultra slow mo. You would be holding block expecting the 2nd hit, and by the time you reacted it would be too late. Say next time up close he does the same string. This time you expect the grab on 2nd hit so you prepare to jump as a read, but he goes through the full string. You are hit and full combo'd for guessing wrong.

-Now say you block both the 1st and 2nd hit of the string. You are right back in the same guessing scenario as listed above for the 3rd hit.

-Now say you made it through all of that and block all 3 hits of the string. At this point you have the option of jumping immediately to avoid the MB Armored Grab. This can lead to a successful escape into a punish, or Kano holding block and punishing your jump with an anti-air. Say you don't jump because last time you were anti-air'd, you can either start your own pressure or attempt to and be hit with the grab.

Now that is the end of all possible scenarios if his grab could connect directly with a cancel of a string. Which would mean during the 2nd and 3rd hits of the string combined you'd have a 25% chance to not be hit during the string, and a 50/50 chance to not be hit after the string assuming he has one bar.

I don't know about you, but I don't like those odds lol.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I don't know anything about KI as I've only played it once.

In SF (and most other fgs) you can do tick throws where you do a normal or something to create a frame trap then do the command grab. The full animation of the normal and its recovery are done. In NRS games, you actually cancel the normal into the command grab which removes the recovery of any move completely and the move comes out forcing a guess situation.

I gotcha.

I get your frustration with the NRS style tick throws.
but the guessing is still.... there.

Nah not saying that tick throws are a problem or a normal into a throw set up is. That's pretty much what grapplers do. I played Vanessa and Wolf in VF5 so I know what you're saying here and agree.

Say for example since Kano has a low starter say one is a low/mid/mid 3 hit string with good start up and recovery. Many Kano players would use the string. Think of it in the sense of competitive play, not robotics like punishing 1 frame gaps into full combos 10/10 type logic some people use. No one jumps out of Bane or Grundy's grabs out of reaction, it's on read because you're guessing it's coming so you're already jumping. You'd be hit with bf2 if you tried jumping expecting a Bane grab for example. Imagine if he was able to do what we're discussing. Now back to Kano, say you block the 1st hit, what do you do on the 2nd hit?

-Still block? Kano can cancel the string directly into MB Armor grab you for 25%. You cannot jump fast enough unless the blocked second hit had horrible, horrible recovery or the grab was ultra slow mo. You would be holding block expecting the 2nd hit, and by the time you reacted it would be too late. Say next time up close he does the same string. This time you expect the grab on 2nd hit so you prepare to jump as a read, but he goes through the full string. You are hit and full combo'd for guessing wrong.

-Now say you block both the 1st and 2nd hit of the string. You are right back in the same guessing scenario as listed above for the 3rd hit.

-Now say you made it through all of that and block all 3 hits of the string. At this point you have the option of jumping immediately to avoid the MB Armored Grab. This can lead to a successful escape into a punish, or Kano holding block and punishing your jump with an anti-air. Say you don't jump because last time you were anti-air'd, you can either start your own pressure or attempt to and be hit with the grab.

Now that is the end of all possible scenarios if his grab could connect directly with a cancel of a string. Which would mean during the 2nd and 3rd hits of the string combined you'd have a 25% chance to not be hit during the string, and a 50/50 chance to not be hit after the string assuming he has one bar.

I don't know about you, but I don't like those odds lol.

As right as you are, you're comparing two different BLOCKING schemes.

Injustice requires you to hold back to block, therefore removing the option of holding jump.

MK will not require you to do such a thing. MK will allow you to simply watch for the grab and let go of block.

Injustice REQUIRES you to hold block until you want to jump.

I understand what you're saying, but you're also assuming alot based on frames (as am I actually).

 

[SaltShaker]

I gotcha.

I get your frustration with the NRS style tick throws.
but the guessing is still.... there.

As right as you are, you're comparing two different BLOCKING schemes.

Injustice requires you to hold back to block, therefore removing the option of holding jump.

MK will not require you to do such a thing. MK will allow you to simply watch for the grab and let go of block.

Injustice REQUIRES you to hold block until you want to jump.

I understand what you're saying, but you're also assuming alot based on frames (as am I actually).

Yea that's under the assumption that it's dangerous. I mean if his grab comes out like Walking Corpse then obviously it'll be easy to stuff lol. But if that grab comes out as quick as the choke grab from the trailer did then that'll be a huge problem in some scenarios.

If he has a 3 hit string where the 2nd and 3rd hits end at anything reasonable on block, say -4, jumping would be a guess only, not a reaction in some cases. If he cancelled after the 2nd hit before the 3rd what would you do? See the cancel, and react in time to jump over the grab? Mid string in the midst of expecting a 3rd blocked hit? That wouldn't be realistic option. You'd have to hold block expecting to block the 2nd hit or hold jump expecting a cancel, but you can't react to either that fast. You'd have to chance jumping or blocking.

It definitely depends on the frames, and even if it was a big enough gap to react at the end of a string or in neutral, which is very possible, at best you'd be completely blind guessing mid string. That's the part that makes him uber scary if the cancel connects directly.

*This is making me want to play him if it connects.

 

[LEGI0N47]

The review leaves some to be desired. But I'm airing on the side of posativety since there is still so much to explore as well as unknown. I just want him to be no shit viable and not a half effort.

Plus we all know that the DLC chars will be the real MVP's so just wait on them lol.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yea that's under the assumption that it's dangerous. I mean if his grab comes out like Walking Corpse then obviously it'll be easy to stuff lol. But if that grab comes out as quick as the choke grab from the trailer did then that'll be a huge problem in some scenarios.

If he has a 3 hit string where the 2nd and 3rd hits end at anything reasonable on block, say -4, jumping would be a guess only, not a reaction in some cases. If he cancelled after the 2nd hit before the 3rd what would you do? See the cancel, and react in time to jump over the grab? Mid string in the midst of expecting a 3rd blocked hit? That wouldn't be realistic option. You'd have to hold block expecting to block the 2nd hit or hold jump expecting a cancel, but you can't react to either that fast. You'd have to chance jumping or blocking.

It definitely depends on the frames, and even if it was a big enough gap to react at the end of a string or in neutral, which is very possible, at best you'd be completely blind guessing mid string. That's the part that makes him uber scary if the cancel connects directly.

*This is making me want to play him if it connects.

I agree

I also completely understand how this is frustrating to @Konqrr
It is rather... obnoxious.

 

[SaltShaker]

I agree

I also completely understand how this is frustrating to @Konqrr
It is rather... obnoxious.

Good convo man! But it's stream time now!!!!

 

[Doombawkz]

No you're correct, canceling into CMD grabs is common, it just works weird in NRS games because jumping from crouch takes way to fucking long. Hell jumping in general has weird startup issues hence whey their were some guaranteed Bane CMD Grab setups (@Doombawkz correct me if I'm wrong).

Nothing is ever "guaranteed" but yeah

^showing all of the grab set-ups vs normal jump (2 frame start-up)

^ showing a b.11 set-up against forward jumps (1 frame start-up)

For the most part, unless you are abusing some of Bane's weird hitbox properties when it comes to blockstun (most moves change based on how far out you hit it), people who try to n.j. out of your grabs will fail against the most common tick set-up, b.2. When it comes to forward/backwards jumping thats usually a safe bet although Bane has options to prevent that too (just frame standing 1 into raw command grab).

So you're pretty much right on the money, but I'm more just providing some visual reference. As far as the normal -> command grab thing goes, Bane can do it decently well because of how much advantage his moves net him, and the fact that the grab is a touchbox (it hits faster the closer you are, with 20 being him moving through the entire animation).

 

[Phosferrax]

Interesting things from yesterdays stream regarding Commando:

- Despite being an airborne move, he parried Milenna's teleport.
- Parry did 17% on hit, and I saw a mb parry although I don't know what it does.
- It looked like Derek was blocking but still got hit by a regular Rib Breaker, which is exciting.
- Rib Breaker and Power Slam (the suplex move) now do 20% on hit.

 

[Brutal Chimney]

honestly couldn't tell the dammage nerf when Derek got fucked up in that corner. Glad to hear at least one of his throws might beat blocking, I'll take a little less dammage for that.

 

[TheJaquio]

What about that multiple-knee throw though? On stream tyler did it on its own, unattached to a string. Did 16% or so. So is that another command throw special to add to choke, power slam, and rib breaker?

 

[Brutal Chimney]

So did any of the throws get blocked?

 

[FakeSypha]

IMO, a command throw, or any throw at all that can be "blocked" breaks the point of them being throws in the first place. I mean, a normal throw in most if not all FGs are there to "open up" people who hang on blocking for too much time. Also, normal throws have a small window to get broken by the opponent. Now, making a COMMAND throw that can be blocked... rustles my jimmies.

All of the command throws in these game suffer from the same shit? If yes, I'd say the game got a flaw in design =/

 

[SaltShaker]

IMO, a command throw, or any throw at all that can be "blocked" breaks the point of them being throws in the first place. I mean, a normal throw in most if not all FGs are there to "open up" people who hang on blocking for too much time. Also, normal throws have a small window to get broken by the opponent. Now, making a COMMAND throw that can be blocked... rustles my jimmies.

All of the command throws in these game suffer from the same shit? If yes, I'd say the game got a flaw in design =/

It's character dependent. For example, Cassie's command throw in Brawler is blockable, where as Kotal's is unblockable.