Breakthrough - A-List [Beta Closed] Lets talk about A-list as is during Beta

[EGP Awesomo]

And with this, I'm out

My insides hurt from laughing too much :\

 

[FoughtDragon01]

This thread took a turn that I honestly wasn't expecting (can you tell I'm new to TYM?)

What exactly would be fair nerfs to A-List anyway? This is something that a lot of folks can't seem to reach a consensus for. I can't imagine lowering his plus frames would hurt him that much, especially since he'd still be able to bait and punish armor. Especially-especially if they gave him faster pokes/normals to compensate. A faster f4 would do wonders for anti-airing, and a faster d1 or d3 would be hell for your opponent if they didn't have meter.

Granted, if his plus frames were heavily altered, I think it'd only be fair for no characters to jail at that point beyond a guaranteed poke, but still be plus enough to catch your opponent pressing buttons with a full combo punish. It'd promote more mind games, I think. It'd become less, 'I know that you can't do anything after these cancels' and more 'You know that I know that you know you can armor through these cancels, but are you gonna take the risk?'

I don't know, but I can't imagine that @EGP Awesomo 's suggestions would hurt Cage that much in the long run. It'd suck at first, sure, but I think some of us may be underestimating how good a character who can make even his most unsafe strings plus can be when played with the appropriate mindset.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

 

[EGP Awesomo]

This thread took a turn that I honestly wasn't expecting (can you tell I'm new to TYM?)

What exactly would be fair nerfs to A-List anyway? This is something that a lot of folks can't seem to reach a consensus for. I can't imagine lowering his plus frames would hurt him that much, especially since he'd still be able to bait and punish armor. Especially-especially if they gave him faster pokes/normals to compensate. A faster f4 would do wonders for anti-airing, and a faster d1 or d3 would be hell for your opponent if they didn't have meter.

Granted, if his plus frames were heavily altered, I think it'd only be fair for no characters to jail at that point beyond a guaranteed poke, but still be plus enough to catch your opponent pressing buttons with a full combo punish. It'd promote more mind games, I think. It'd become less, 'I know that you can't do anything after these cancels' and more 'You know that I know that you know you can armor through these cancels, but are you gonna take the risk?'

I don't know, but I can't imagine that @EGP Awesomo 's suggestions would hurt Cage that much in the long run. It'd suck at first, sure, but I think some of us may be underestimating how good a character who can make even his most unsafe strings plus can be when played with the appropriate mindset.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

This is basically where me and @Dja_Homies were trying to go with the changes. Make the other normals faster (d1 and 1) and some with better anti air properties (1 ala mk9, but thats just me being greedy, and f4). I feel like just because he cant jail doesnt mean hes not a offensive power house. Heavy weapons is actually negative on most of his cancels but his ability to bait and convert makes the variation really good. Like the only problem i had with hellfire getting nerfed in frames was that he didnt really have a good footsie tool to play around with in the neutral. Johnny has f3, which can blow up backdashes (on reads), jumping, and neutral ducking. And if you keep the frames at around +5 theyd still have to either block, armor or backdash because being +5 against johnny gets you a d1 if youre frame perfect. IDK thats just me tho, I think people dont really understand how good his tool kit currently is outside of the massive + frames. But on that note, I think I really just want to stop whiffing throw when Im way too plus off f3 or 121 :[

 

[Rodney Quillz]

Wasn't his standing 1 in mk9 9 frames? Or was it 8?

 

[Asodimazze]

This thread took a turn that I honestly wasn't expecting (can you tell I'm new to TYM?)

What exactly would be fair nerfs to A-List anyway? This is something that a lot of folks can't seem to reach a consensus for. I can't imagine lowering his plus frames would hurt him that much, especially since he'd still be able to bait and punish armor. Especially-especially if they gave him faster pokes/normals to compensate. A faster f4 would do wonders for anti-airing, and a faster d1 or d3 would be hell for your opponent if they didn't have meter.

Granted, if his plus frames were heavily altered, I think it'd only be fair for no characters to jail at that point beyond a guaranteed poke, but still be plus enough to catch your opponent pressing buttons with a full combo punish. It'd promote more mind games, I think. It'd become less, 'I know that you can't do anything after these cancels' and more 'You know that I know that you know you can armor through these cancels, but are you gonna take the risk?'

I don't know, but I can't imagine that @EGP Awesomo 's suggestions would hurt Cage that much in the long run. It'd suck at first, sure, but I think some of us may be underestimating how good a character who can make even his most unsafe strings plus can be when played with the appropriate mindset.

Am I misunderstanding something here?

We can't tell if he will become better or worse after the suggested changes...It depends on how faster would his pokes be after the hypothethical (and unrealistic) buff. if D1 and S1 become 6 frames (and also better anti airs, together with f4, like suggested) and he loses the ability to jail after f3 but is still plus (+5), he actually becomes FAR stronger than now.

He would have much better defensive abilities and faster punishes (his slow moves are one of his main weaknesses) and lose very little, being able to jail using other strings...nothing would stop him from doing 114skrc, 114skrc, 114ex forceballs or some other blockstring after a nutpunch.

 

[Poto2222]

Here's a change that I didn't see anyone mentioning:

Cage's ExNP doesn't have pushback in the corner anymore.

This is potentially big, since ExNP was somewhat safer on block since it had a huge pushback when done in the corner. Cassie could barely punish it (I actually think she couldn't punish it at all), but now that the pushback is gone, the whole cast can punish it pretty easily.

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Here's a change that I didn't see anyone mentioning:

Cage's ExNP doesn't have pushback in the corner anymore.

This is potentially big, since ExNP was somewhat safer on block since it had a huge pushback when done in the corner. Cassie could barely punish it (I actually think she couldn't punish it at all), but now that the pushback is gone, the whole cast can punish it pretty easily.

Eh, I noticed that, but it didnt really feel like much of a difference since most of the top 10 can punish it regardless of the pushback haha

 

[Wigy]

And with this, I'm out

Dude most of the posts i reply to were people saying jc was way better than liu prepatch and you 'just get jailed for days by his 50/50s' like nothing vaguely true. The community bandwagon Atm is an erection for hating on cage, you included so im also outtieee.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

If this is the case him having b3 as a mid is enogh, he shouldn't have f2 as a mid. I think it isn't though.

F2 is OH.

 

[Airvidal]

F2 is OH.

No it's not

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

No it's not

In the beta?It's mid?Well, then the "Mixups" he had don't even exist now then lol.

 

[Airvidal]

In the beta?It's mid?Well, then the "Mixups" he had don't even exist now then lol.

I believe we're talking about two different characters

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I believe we're talking about two different characters

...I'm talking about Johnny Cage, people said he has mixups with 11 f2 and 113 and said f2 is OH.

You said f2 isn't OH.....

I think that we both are talking about different characters.

 

[Airvidal]

...I'm talking about Johnny Cage, people said he has mixups with 11 f2 and 113 and said f2 is OH.

You said f2 isn't OH.....

I think that we both are talking about different characters.

I was having a talk with a couple other guys about Lao, I'm assuming you haven't read most of the thread. But I see where the confusion is, all good.

 

[xxFalcon Loverxx]

I was having a talk with a couple other guys about Lao, I'm assuming you haven't read most of the thread. But I see where the confusion is, all good.

Woops, sorry about that.

 

[ismael4790]

Here's a change that I didn't see anyone mentioning:

Cage's ExNP doesn't have pushback in the corner anymore.

This is potentially big, since ExNP was somewhat safer on block since it had a huge pushback when done in the corner. Cassie could barely punish it (I actually think she couldn't punish it at all), but now that the pushback is gone, the whole cast can punish it pretty easily.

Wtf... I can't believe this. Totally unnecessary.

Even if thay want to screw A-List a bit I could understand this. But doing it also to Stunt double...and Fisticuffs....? Really?

Damn, nrs, you are condemning FC to live in bottom 3 spots. Give him a break.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

Wtf... I can't believe this. Totally unnecessary.

Even if thay want to screw A-List a bit I could understand this. But doing it also to Stunt double...and Fisticuffs....? Really?

Damn, nrs, you are condemning FC to live in bottom 3 spots. Give him a break.

What? That thing was safe vs a lot of characters because of the pushback in the corner -_- really?

 

[ismael4790]

What? That thing was safe vs a lot of characters because of the pushback in the corner -_- really?

And that tool made FC broken, right?

Nutpunch has different properties in A-list than Fisticuffs. Treating both the same in terms of nerfs is absurd.

 

[EMPRESS_SunFire]

And that tool made FC broken, right?

Nutpunch has different properties in A-list than Fisticuffs. Treating both the same in terms of nerfs is absurd.

True, I'm saying this from a "fuck A-list" ponit of view but yeah, that had to go at least in A-list and Stunt Double.
I think it's more of a fisticuffs being booty kind of thing.

 

[ismael4790]

It's really pissing me off how nrs is allowing Fisticuffs to eat collateral damage nerfs. At the moment, in the beta, to get the grab buff he already paid it with 3 unwarranted nerfs: d4 nerf, b2 not being special cancelable, and ex nutpunch pushback change.

It's not only they don't care about not giving him new tools. We are at the point they are making him lose stuff...

 

[DDutchguy]

Uh I didn't follow this thread much but what's up with everyone being pissed? This isn't only about the -6 d4 is it?

 

[ismael4790]

Uh I didn't follow this thread much but what's up with everyone being pissed? This isn't only about the -6 d4 is it?

There has been discussion about if A-List is fine or not. Imo he's a very good well rounded character, and he will continue to be even with slight nerfs on his advantage on cancels.

But nrs should be much more careful, those possible A-List nerfs shouldn't touch variations that don't deserve nerfs, but buffs.

Players tend not care about Fistucuffs, because meh, "A-List is good". Even some top players I asked for ideas to improve this variation answered like "just play A-List". And this is sad. Every variation should be viable and shine in some area, and this is not the case with FC.

 

[DDutchguy]

There has been discussion about if A-List is fine or not. Imo he's a very good well rounded character, and he will continue to be even with slight nerfs on his advantage on cancels.

But nrs should be much more careful, those possible A-List nerfs shouldn't touch variations that don't deserve nerfs, but buffs.

Players tend not care about Fistucuffs, because meh, "A-List is good". Even some top players I asked for ideas to improve this variation answered like "just play A-List". And this is sad. Every variation should be viable and shine in some area, and this is not the case with FC.

A-list is really good, but doesn't need nerfs in my opinion. Slight adjustments on the cancels will likely happen, but besides that he doesn't really have much nerf-worthy stuff. Fisticuffs does need buffs, most notably being able to do two flip kicks for the swaggiest corner combo ever. Also a little less pushback on speedbag. Did the 17% throw help out any for Fisticuffs?

 

[ismael4790]

A-list is really good, but doesn't need nerfs in my opinion. Slight adjustments on the cancels will likely happen, but besides that he doesn't really have much nerf-worthy stuff. Fisticuffs does need buffs, most notably being able to do two flip kicks for the swaggiest corner combo ever. Also a little less pushback on speedbag. Did the 17% throw help out any for Fisticuffs?

Agree, A-List will be competitive even with those adjustments.

The two flipckicks would be nice but not needed really. Fistbump grab is cool, but does not take away fisticuffs from the trash bin. I always will say an ex version of the Fistbump would make a lot of sense, with new properties as increased damage, faster startup, allowing to combo from some strings...(similar to flame fist Liu). Would be a way to give more use to his 113 low string. This is the only Cage variation that can't make 113 safe, and this reduces a lot his mixup game. Sd and A-List can do the string safe or semisafe at least. Fisticuffs options after 113 are getting punished or waste a bar to be "safe" (there's a gap after the 3, so you can even get punished in this scenario).

B1 is a mid that has whiffing issues, and inconsistent ones: depending on the caracter you can get a different number of hits on block midscreen, it makes no sense and it's weird, one just can't trust the string. You not only have to fear the gap it has, but also if it will whiff or not. The pushback, as you say, needs to be reduced. Also the frames on startup and block are poor together, specially considering poke improvement in many members of the cast.

If nrs guys don't sit in a table and seriously discuss about how to fix this variation, it directly goes for bottom 3 from march on, without doubt.

 

[zaccbarias]

just read from the reptile forums that nimble trait is 10 frames faster now. WTH NRS. why u not give fisti the same buff?