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Batgirl, honestly

TheBoyBlunder

They love my Grayson
IT'S NOT A DOWNPLAY THREAD, READ THE OP

I KNOW she's good, that's one of the reasons I play her, but there's reasons she isn't the best. I was merely stating a few. I also stated some of her pros which make her top tier, if you hadn't noticed
You clearly can't see your downplaying from the bias position you stand in right now. You made a list of crap that no one in this thread even wants to touch. That's how bad it is. You're getting on Fred Marvel for his wake up tier list, but this is 100X worse.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
My points:

#1 Batgirl has a meterless vortex , vs 80% of the cast safe , you don't get punished for the 50 50 on block with full grown man combos , damage in the high 30+ , great wall carry where her reward gets BIFU Insaynne levels.

#2 With most characters the "guessing game" after blocking her safe stuff like b12 limits to usually a d1 ( some d1xxSpecial ) check , anything riskier than that might get jumped / backdashed or shoryuken MB into vortex / damage .

#3 Cartwheel is a good wakeup attack ( sorry that MMH is among the best characters at stuffing wakeups ) , not easy to stuff and w her multiple wakeup options as flying bat , bat evade and teleport , you gotta respect her on wakeup and bait stuff a lot wich means pressure on her WU is made of reads , most setups vs her wakeups lose to one of the multiple options she has.

#4 Cartwheel being punishable is ok , but you guys don't mention that you have to block the 2nd hit crouching or the high version will jail , the overhead option if blocked this way has more pushback and some characters lose their big damage punishes ( i know deathstroke does ) , the low is a lot safer that you guys sell and this way of blocking to punish the high and the oh version open you up to the low , if you do the backdash you don't get nothing to punish the high version or the low one but you get no pushback from the oh version ( more punishable ) , also cartwheel range is pretty good , it also catches people trying to jump out a lot / backdashing , it's multihitting.

#5 How is your character damage "low" when you get a free 50/50 after doing over 25 , sometimes over 30+ , with great wallcarry if you go for damage ( how is 40% low damage? ) , when she gets to the corner 40+ , 50+ damage for one bar? Interactable setups she can get in good stages.

#6 Teleport that controls interactables , disappear from the screen , fairly fast and can be done on reaction on a good amount of stuff, it's negative on block cry me a river , you deserve it , but what about the whiff recovery? It's way harder to punish on whiff.

#7 6 frame uppercut , basically a launcher with meter into vortex , while risky the reward is good, hitbox ain't bad it's FAST.

#8 good forward dash and backdash , good jump normals , you guys don't talk about the active frames of j2 and the hitbox wich is hard to AA with a good bunch of characters , that can open up j3 when they start respecting j2 , also poking out of j2 into 50/50 timing changes on how deep the j2 hit and if she goes for a safe fast string you get interrupted and possibly launched , if you don't have a very good backdash b1u2 can hit your backdash mid animation , b2u3 on whiff is just a b2 wich doesn't have punishable recovery so you're safe.

Her footsies are subpar but her aircontrol isn't bad , her best footsie tool is a 14 frame safe low launcher with decent reach , cartwheel has good range but it may be punished , her dashes aren't as fast recovering as say flash but they're decent.

What most are "salty" about is probably the less amount of strategy work she has to do compared to other characters , her combos can lead to good damage or safe 50/50 vortex while the other characters must find setups to beat this kind of wakeup or learning to stuff this other wakeup , a safejump , a fake crossup / crossup that might beat this option or that other option , to Batgirl the best setup is just going for a meterless bola and she doesn't have to deal w any kind of wakeup scenario , her knockdown oki isn't as safe as bola is.
Because her random air control factor ( yolo teleport ) she can get comebacks , upclose j2 will condition you to not jump to a2a her , she could also cancel her jump into a teleport for maximum YOLO , Bola fullscreen trades favourly vs a good bunch of characters , it's very + on block at long ranges , after Redemption on block she's +1 and there's a YOLO mindgame there too w 6 frame shoryuken if you think you can always safely poke her out , you can't take that for granted.

She's not broken , she's a high random factor w good reward character , her footsies are definately weaker than others but her snowball effect is huge at mid and even high level , you have to play perfect vs her or a mistake could cost you a match suddently and that's why she gets kinda "hated" by high level players , she is pretty dumb but has her fair share of even MUs and a couple bad matchups.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You clearly can't see your downplaying from the bias position you stand in right now. You made a list of crap that no one in this thread even wants to touch. That's how bad it is. You're getting on Fred Marvel for his wake up tier list, but this is 100X worse.
And the list of pros I gave after are downplaying too? Ok then... It's not "crap" btw, it's facts. From the frame data. From practice. From observation. Go practice it yourself if you don't believe me.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
My points:

#1 Batgirl has a meterless vortex , vs 80% of the cast safe , you don't get punished for the 50 50 on block with full grown man combos , damage in the high 30+ , great wall carry where her reward gets BIFU Insaynne levels.

#2 With most characters the "guessing game" after blocking her safe stuff like b12 limits to usually a d1 ( some d1xxSpecial ) check , anything riskier than that might get jumped / backdashed or shoryuken MB into vortex / damage .

#3 Cartwheel is a good wakeup attack ( sorry that MMH is among the best characters at stuffing wakeups ) , not easy to stuff and w her multiple wakeup options as flying bat , bat evade and teleport , you gotta respect her on wakeup and bait stuff a lot wich means pressure on her WU is made of reads , most setups vs her wakeups lose to one of the multiple options she has.

#4 Cartwheel being punishable is ok , but you guys don't mention that you have to block the 2nd hit crouching or the high version will jail , the overhead option if blocked this way has more pushback and some characters lose their big damage punishes ( i know deathstroke does ) , the low is a lot safer that you guys sell and this way of blocking to punish the high and the oh version open you up to the low , if you do the backdash you don't get nothing to punish the high version or the low one but you get no pushback from the oh version ( more punishable ) , also cartwheel range is pretty good , it also catches people trying to jump out a lot / backdashing , it's multihitting.

#5 How is your character damage "low" when you get a free 50/50 after doing over 25 , sometimes over 30+ , with great wallcarry if you go for damage ( how is 40% low damage? ) , when she gets to the corner 40+ , 50+ damage for one bar? Interactable setups she can get in good stages.

#6 Teleport that controls interactables , disappear from the screen , fairly fast and can be done on reaction on a good amount of stuff, it's negative on block cry me a river , you deserve it , but what about the whiff recovery? It's way harder to punish on whiff.

#7 6 frame uppercut , basically a launcher with meter into vortex , while risky the reward is good, hitbox ain't bad it's FAST.

#8 good forward dash and backdash , good jump normals , you guys don't talk about the active frames of j2 and the hitbox wich is hard to AA with a good bunch of characters , that can open up j3 when they start respecting j2 , also poking out of j2 into 50/50 timing changes on how deep the j2 hit and if she goes for a safe fast string you get interrupted and possibly launched , if you don't have a very good backdash b1u2 can hit your backdash mid animation , b2u3 on whiff is just a b2 wich doesn't have punishable recovery so you're safe.

Her footsies are subpar but her aircontrol isn't bad , her best footsie tool is a 14 frame safe low launcher with decent reach , cartwheel has good range but it may be punished , her dashes aren't as fast recovering as say flash but they're decent.

What most are "salty" about is probably the less amount of strategy work she has to do compared to other characters , her combos can lead to good damage or safe 50/50 vortex while the other characters must find setups to beat this kind of wakeup or learning to stuff this other wakeup , a safejump , a fake crossup / crossup that might beat this option or that other option , to Batgirl the best setup is just going for a meterless bola and she doesn't have to deal w any kind of wakeup scenario , her knockdown oki isn't as safe as bola is.
Because her random air control factor ( yolo teleport ) she can get comebacks , upclose j2 will condition you to not jump to a2a her , she could also cancel her jump into a teleport for maximum YOLO , Bola fullscreen trades favourly vs a good bunch of characters , it's very + on block at long ranges , after Redemption on block she's +1 and there's a YOLO mindgame there too w 6 frame shoryuken if you think you can always safely poke her out , you can't take that for granted.

She's not broken , she's a high random factor w good reward character , her footsies are definately weaker than others but her snowball effect is huge at mid and even high level , you have to play perfect vs her or a mistake could cost you a match suddently and that's why she gets kinda "hated" by high level players , she is pretty dumb but has her fair share of even MUs and a couple bad matchups.
I'm just saying that those who say she's broken or OP are wrong, I'm not disputing that she's top tier or very good
 
2. Batgirl's overhead option, b2u3, is -7 so quit crying and practice punishing it. Your character doesn't have a 6 frame d1 or normal? Use someone who does then, ie Flash (6frame uppercut), Bane (long range standing 1) or someone else. Low option though is only -2 so figure something out yourself :p

3. Her vortex is hard to react to, not impossible but quite hard.
You lost me on these two points.

2. The whole point of a balanced game is you shouldn't have to win or lose by your character. Saying "pick a new character" is more an argument against Batgirl.

3. What? You can't react to any of her 50/50's in her vortex. You just can't.

Also, I've seen some character's d+1's whiff trying to punish her on -7. There's something about that pushback that makes it not consistently punishable.

If NRS is going to make something designed to be punishable, it should be punishable by the whole cast. Making it -8 and reducing the pushback would solve the problem.

I don't think she's overpowered, but there's no getting around the fact her design is crap.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
You clearly can't see your downplaying from the bias position you stand in right now. You made a list of crap that no one in this thread even wants to touch. That's how bad it is. You're getting on Fred Marvel for his wake up tier list, but this is 100X worse.
What about his list was untrue?

How is it 100x worse than blatantly stating falsities?
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
My points:
she is pretty dumb but has her fair share of even MUs and a couple bad matchups.
That was essentially what @Youphemism was saying.

Also, on #3, the 5-6 characters I play I spent all of 5 minutes in the lab with and found a way to stuff wakeup cartwheel. I'm almost positive every character has a way to do it. It's pretty easy to stuff tbh.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
You lost me on these two points.

2. The whole point of a balanced game is you shouldn't have to win or lose by your character. Saying "pick a new character" is more an argument against Batgirl.

3. What? You can't react to any of her 50/50's in her vortex. You just can't.

Also, I've seen some character's d+1's whiff trying to punish her on -7. There's something about that pushback that makes it not consistently punishable.

If NRS is going to make something designed to be punishable, it should be punishable by the whole cast. Making it -8 and reducing the pushback would solve the problem.

I don't think she's overpowered, but there's no getting around the fact her design is crap.
Well you don't have to pick a new character, but you can at least backdash to get away from more pressure

And maybe you can't, but others can. It's 14 frames at least on startup

Yeah I've been reaffirmed about its pushback, just backdash after.

That would definitely allow for more decent punishes yeah, but just backdash after block or backdash after the b2
 
That was essentially what @Youphemism was saying.

Also, on #3, the 5-6 characters I play I spent all of 5 minutes in the lab with and found a way to stuff wakeup cartwheel. I'm almost positive every character has a way to do it. It's pretty easy to stuff tbh.
Lex can't stuff it :(

Closest thing I found was jump-back + j3 to hit her after it. However this is a horrible idea- with his floaty jump she easily reacts to it and catches him out of the air with a wake-up tele.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
I'm pretty sure b2u3 isn't consistently punishable by even 6 frame d+1's.

I saw Killer Frost's d+1 whiff due to the pushback during Civil War.
No you're right. Only like 4-5 characters can punish it. The ones I know of (have tested myself) are:

BG, BM, Flash, MMH but there's probably a few more.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Lex can't stuff it :(

Closest thing I found was jump-back + j3 to hit her after it. However this is a horrible idea- with his floaty jump she easily reacts to it and catches him out of the air with a wake-up tele.
Backdash corpse charge?