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Strategy Bad Matchups - Making them winnable

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Bidu

the CHILL of DESPAIR
Maybe im wrong but NJP>Tele 3 & 22>Tele 3 & Uppercut>Tele 3?
dont have many experience against kunglaos, but for me it seems like his tele is punishable
You can't NJP nor 22. Or even Uppercut if you're jailed into stand block position. All you can do is eat the teleport or block it.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Ice ball will not trade with instant air fans. That's the whole reason this MU is a problem.
Yep. My experience boils down to.... walk forward duck a fan.... walk forward duck a fan. Online I have to d4 sometimes to make sure i'm not hit. In any case, I would advise against dashing. He has a slow dash anyway, and it cuts off some of the mobility you have. It also makes it easier to jump over the ground fans. Trading is hard, because she is always going to be at some type of projectile advantage.
The understanding here, is that once you get a life lead, make her come to you. You can control the space in front of you with well timed clones, but you can not just throw one out willy nilly. You need to know how far her long range launcher string reaches. You need to understand that you can punish d1 into cutter. I use d4~clone on block more in this match than any other. It is basically subs d1. It says "no further".
Another thing, I tend to get annoyed by getting HIT with d1, when it only does like 1% damage? Don't let that frustrate you. Methodically push her and try to induce a mistake or take an unnecessary risk. Don't miss the punishment, or you'll lose.
My question is .... can Sub d4 after a blocked d1. I don't know for sure, and don't want to put out (more) bad info.
 

rev0lver

Come On Die Young
Yes, Sub can d4 after a blocked d1. d1 is -15 on block. However, don't get into a pattern with counterpoking. I'll try to d1 you, back up, and blow up your d4 with f2,1.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
What about Ermacs that trolololol fullscreen fireballs?
"You cant do anything about it," says my ignorant mind.
I'm starting to think he has a slight advantage because of his ability to mixup from full screen and outside of JiP range. He can stop himself from a clone by blasting in mid air, or teleporting (bad idea). Basically he makes you block more than you should and makes Sub take risks he sometimes doesn't have to.
Sub can stand right outside of TKP range and trade with everything. To me, this is the space you want to start your pressure from. It makes Ermac guess rather than Sub. Once you get some type of knockdown Sub is at a HUGE advantage, the same type that Ermac gets at full screen.

I haven't done this much, but most Ermacs I play tend to tech roll when they can, and exGround Freeze catches them. Kind of gimmicky, but sometimes you have to be random to win.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Smoke

I'm going double post here. What do you guys think about the Smoke matchup? I think the advantage is slight... 4.5-5.5 maybe. He protects his life lead very well, and can pace the match very easily. However, Sub can walk him to the corner to create better situations for himself. I also think Smoke punishes better than Sub for mistakes, especially with the reset lottery.
I think Sub can walk him down and make him guess, and keeping smoke in the corner AREA is a must. You know he wants to get out, and will try by either exSmoking away, or jump teleporting. You can get the jump teleport with a well timed slide, and cross over. Smoke away is basically a get out of jail free, but he does burn a valuable meter.
What do you guys feel about it? What do you do to make the matchup a better one?

[MENTION=7994]Faded Dreams V[/MENTION] [MENTION=4641]BeerGuyEd[/MENTION] I know you guys play smoke and I'd love your opinion from Smoke's PoV.
 
I'm going double post here. What do you guys think about the Smoke matchup? I think the advantage is slight... 4.5-5.5 maybe. He protects his life lead very well, and can pace the match very easily. However, Sub can walk him to the corner to create better situations for himself. I also think Smoke punishes better than Sub for mistakes, especially with the reset lottery.
I think Sub can walk him down and make him guess, and keeping smoke in the corner AREA is a must. You know he wants to get out, and will try by either exSmoking away, or jump teleporting. You can get the jump teleport with a well timed slide, and cross over. Smoke away is basically a get out of jail free, but he does burn a valuable meter.
What do you guys feel about it? What do you do to make the matchup a better one?

[MENTION=7994]Faded Dreams V[/MENTION] [MENTION=4641]BeerGuyEd[/MENTION] I know you guys play smoke and I'd love your opinion from Smoke's PoV.
I think the matchup is even with Smoke. Smoke gets out of the corner easily compared to most of the cast. This match up to me comes down to life lead. Sub has a life lead Smokes offense gets really limited against a turtle sub. If Smoke has a life lead then things get tricky for Sub since Smoke does punish harder than Sub does from a damage stand point. Sub can slide Smoke Bombs on reaction but Smoke can Smoke Bomb clones on reaction too, and the smoke bombs lead to way more damage than a slide does. For sub players I suggest you get a life lead and turtle like a mofo.

Against high level sub players most of my matches end with time outs, lol.
 

Faded Dreams V

Retired June 2012. Unretired June 2013.
I'm going double post here. What do you guys think about the Smoke matchup? I think the advantage is slight... 4.5-5.5 maybe. He protects his life lead very well, and can pace the match very easily. However, Sub can walk him to the corner to create better situations for himself. I also think Smoke punishes better than Sub for mistakes, especially with the reset lottery.
I think Sub can walk him down and make him guess, and keeping smoke in the corner AREA is a must. You know he wants to get out, and will try by either exSmoking away, or jump teleporting. You can get the jump teleport with a well timed slide, and cross over. Smoke away is basically a get out of jail free, but he does burn a valuable meter.
What do you guys feel about it? What do you do to make the matchup a better one?

[MENTION=7994]Faded Dreams V[/MENTION] [MENTION=4641]BeerGuyEd[/MENTION] I know you guys play smoke and I'd love your opinion from Smoke's PoV.
Personally, I think it's slightly in Smoke's favor. But not by much. First of all, he's the only character that can severely punish a slide without having to block it. Secondly, he can smoke bomb ice clones on reaction. I'm sure you noticed me doing a lot of point blank smoke bombs yesterday. It was risky, but I was trying to bait you into using an ice clone. lol. Third, Smoke can escape the corner using EX Smoke Towards or an aerial teleport. Finally, he can counter iceballs with a teleport (my preferred option) or shake.

Essentially, Smoke has an answer for EVERYTHING Sub-Zero does. Not one thing gets left unpunished, and he doesn't fall for Sub-Zero corner bs. That said, if the Sub-Zero knows he's playing a high-level Smoke (which is pretty rare and hard to tell online), he can change his playstyle. For one, a Sub-Zero that knows about Smoke will quickly realize that Smoke will try to bait out ice clones. Knowing this, the Sub-Zero can trick the Smoke into thinking an ice clone is coming, fool him into throwing a close Smoke bomb, and then punish the hell out of him. One way to do this is by using 2 1 4 while he's blocking, and NOT ending it with anything. If a Smoke tries to escape the corner with Ex Smoke Towards, Sub-Zero should expect this, jump backwards, and continue pressure or punish him (same goes for a Raiden who teleports in the corner). An aerial teleport is even easier for Sub-Zero to punish. And as BeerGuy mentioned, Smoke bombs can be punished by a slide, but this has to be done at mid-range distance, I believe. A Sub-Zero who knows the Smoke matchup will also NEVER throw random ice balls; he has to time it perfectly.

Case in point, Smoke may have an answer for everything, but if Sub-Zero knows what he's doing, that matchup isn't completely in Smoke's favor. I'd say it's like 5.2-4.8 for Smoke, with his biggest advantage being that he can run away the entire fight until time runs out, making it difficult for Sub-Zero to win if Smoke has the life lead.
 
Thx guys, never thought of this backjump to punish his cloud in corner
most annoying part in this matchup is knockdowns, i cant do shit for him ( thx for new wakups system ) and when im knocked down he can start pressure easily
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
Thx guys, never thought of this backjump to punish his cloud in corner
most annoying part in this matchup is knockdowns, i cant do shit for him ( thx for new wakups system ) and when im knocked down he can start pressure easily
d4... stuffs anything that would actually hit you. Plus, everything he has hits high.... so there is also that. Paitence is a virtue in this match for Sub.
 
I have some questions : why Mileena telekick overcome Subby Ice Clone, when Subby does the move before Mileena does her tele kick ?

Sub Ice Puddle, can make some effect in Mileena Ball Roll wakeup ?
I've been reasonably successful at snuffing the telekick on wakeup. Try NJ and clone as soon as possible after a full screen knockdown on her. Unlike simply cloning grounded, it seems to catch her before the kick comes out. After once or twice they will stop telekick on wakeup. Note this doesn't seem to work with the EX version as she seems to have armor.

I have no equipment to capture video, but you can test it out and see if it works for you. Its kinda neat because the camera pans high to frame her and sub...
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
I've been reasonably successful at snuffing the telekick on wakeup. Try NJ and clone as soon as possible after a full screen knockdown on her. Unlike simply cloning grounded, it seems to catch her before the kick comes out. After once or twice they will stop telekick on wakeup. Note this doesn't seem to work with the EX version as she seems to have armor.

I have no equipment to capture video, but you can test it out and see if it works for you. Its kinda neat because the camera pans high to frame her and sub...
there is no armor... and against anyone good, she'll simply just roll you on wakeup if you jump.
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
clouds > d4 =[
agreed. I was just saying it is the safest option if you are trying to stay close. I posted up my matches against Faded, he plays a good freakin smoke. The one set I did win, I was able to keep him standing with b1,2,1, and kept 2,1 pressure on him. You have to remember that after a smoke bomb, 2,2 is your friend.
 
agreed. I was just saying it is the safest option if you are trying to stay close. I posted up my matches against Faded, he plays a good freakin smoke. The one set I did win, I was able to keep him standing with b1,2,1, and kept 2,1 pressure on him. You have to remember that after a smoke bomb, 2,2 is your friend.
i cant punish smoke bombs, for example after smoke string or d1 bomb, i tried d4/22/21/slides/throws
all i can take is block string its not bad but i dont agree that his bomb is punishable by sub, i think its -7/8 on block
 

NRF CharlieMurphy

Kindergarten Meta
i cant punish smoke bombs, for example after smoke string or d1 bomb, i tried d4/22/21/slides/throws
all i can take is block string its not bad but i dont agree that his bomb is punishable by sub, i think its -7/8 on block
-9... so yeah the timing is super duper tight. You have to let go of block the moment you block the bomb. online... its very tough.
 

G4S KT

Gaming4Satan Founder
Personally, I think Smoke fucks up Subz. But that might be because I've never fought a top level Subz player
 
hey guys sorry if this is a noob question, but what do i do against mileena's ex tele kick on wakeup cause the delayed sais keep me blocking n so she continues wit more pressure?
 

salvificblood

Worst Sub-Zero Ever
Here it is. This is what we need to be discussing. What are the ways to make the bad match ups .... Kabal, Kitana, Cyrax, Freddy, Kung Lao, Mileena and Shang Tsung (My opinion.... nothing more or less) winnable.

I am not going to turn down any input as long as it has been tested... and heck, anything that is put up here I will test myself as will i'm sure all of the Sub players. I think we all get caught up arguing over the wrong things, when in fact we need to find ways around these match ups.
First, we all need to agree... that Kung Lao is unwinnable. A good Kung Lao will know how to jail Sub Zero with his teleport instant 3 or delayed 3 which basically locks him down and makes him a sitting duck. He is the one character that I will switch to another to compete. My answer is Johnny Cage... just because of the small hit box and because against Kung Lao he plays the passive aggressor.

Lets get this started no?
Kabal isn't a bad matchup. I'll take Kabal any day of the week over Raiden and Quan Chi (I don't know if the Quan Chi thing is just me, but I really do feel that matchup is torturous at the best of times). I know most will probably criticise me for saying Quan Chi but I am just going by personal experience. I have always thought Quan Chi is ridiculously good despite all the comments that say otherwise. Shang Tsung isn't a bad matchup for me.

My bad matchups:

Raiden first and foremost, Quan Chi, Kitana, Mileena, Kung Lao (probably as bad as Raiden, or worse), Skarlett, Smoke and maybe Scorpion.

I don't know how to make those matchups more favourable - they wouldn't be unfavourable matchups if I knew how. My approach is to see what I can get away with, to be brutally honest.
 

sz22

Noob
When I block a teleport attack with Sub-Zero, if there's an ice clone, pressing 2,2 will knock them right into it. Or in Smoke's case he'll just teleport into it. If there isn't I always do back+1, 2, freeze, and then a combo of my choice. Those should make fights against teleporters easier.
 
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