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Strategy - Sorcerer Back 3,2,4 is a problem.

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
I'm gonna talk about why I think Quan Chi's low string is going to be used far less, and why consequently F212 will be used more. I'm not saying B324 should be changed, I'm not complaining about it. Just laying out the flaws and how to play around them.

Starting with the good about our low string B324:
- 10 frames
- guaranteed off a jumpin or blocked EX Rune
- leads to 30-40% combos into Armor Spell or Vortex
- easily hit confirmed, or canceled into EX Rune to be safe

Now let's get to the bad.
- B324 is -14 on block. Anyone can full combo punish it. It should only be thrown out on block on the sickest of reads.
- B32 is armorable at certain collision points due to it's funky hitbox causing holes.
- B32 EX Rune is armorable and backdashable.
- B32 is ALSO -14 on block

The last two points are the biggest problems. So if they're blocking low, they just need to wait for the second hit, and then backdash. If we EX Rune, we've wasted a bar. If we stop at B32, obviously they're out.

Armored attacks will blow through B32 EX Rune, and since B32 alone is -14 on block, this means we can't even stop short of the rune and just block. Any armored attack 13 frames or faster will not only interrupt the rune, but will also punish B32 block. For example, SubZero has no reason not to just EX Slide when he sees this string.


And that's just a slide. Cassie, Jax, Lao, Jin, Raiden, Kano, you name it. If you use B324 against them, you WILL be hit with an armored reversal unless you bet it all and input the full string. Even then, they can OS it an still block. And I think this really effects Sorcerer/Warlock. We need meter for B2 Rune, breaker, zoning. And these issues will cause B32 to become basically a waste of meter when people blow it up this easily.

Also, B3 Rune is also interruptable, so while this can screw with them, now you're ditching the whole possibility of actually hitting with your low and confirming into combo, and you're just throwing out B3 Rune, meaning you're burning meter guaranteed.

Moving on, i think this causes F212 to become more important. When using d4, d3, EX Rune in footsies, or inputting off a jumpin, F212 is super easy to hit confirm into F2122. Its first two hits are close enough to break armor sometimes, making it a dream to use in Armor Spell. The string has no holes, and is uninterruptable into EX Rune. And F212 is only -1 on block.

So when you're fishing for a hit, F212 can catch them hitting buttons, and on block you actually have options, unlike the 50/50 on block. You can D3, backdash, NJP, EX Scoop (Warlock) when the blocked string baits them to move. In Armor Spell, F212 blows through their attack, leaving you safe on block or giving an EX Rune follow-up. And if they jump in, F212 in the Armor Spell anti-airs like craaazy, and can confirm into F2122 B1 Trance.


In conclusion, I'm using B32 after EX Rune when I think they're trying to armor through B2 or escape a grab, and sometimes off a jump in. But really, with every part of it being severely negative, and with many characters having a win/win armor opportunity whether we EX Rune or not, our low starter doesn't leave in a good place if it doesn't hit from the first hit. F212, while not a mixup, builds more meter, is uninterruptable into EX Rune, is -1 on block, and wrecks shit on the ground or in the air with armor spell, leaving us in a much better place if it's blocked, and giving the most damage when it hits.

I do not believe this is something that makes Sorecer a bad variation, because B32 is great in the Armor Spell, and his other strings like F212 become super good in Sorecer variation due ot the spell.
 
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LEGEND

YES!
Labbed this a bit today after I saw you mention B324 Could be blown up in another thread. Great stuff as always Mayo

Wish you'd do some work with Kenshi like the old days.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Labbed this a bit today after I saw you mention B324 Could be blown up in another thread. Great stuff as always Mayo

Wish you'd do some work with Kenshi like the old days.
I wanted to believe me, I've loved him since Deception, but as soon as I picked him up I just didn't like the way he felt.
 

LEGEND

YES!
I wanted to believe me, I've loved him since Deception, but as soon as I picked him up I just didn't like the way he felt.
Took me a little bit, wasn't feeling it at first either.

Really digging kenjustu's style atm. Feels a lot more like MK9 Kenshi than the other variations do, or at least for how I played MK9 kenshi
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
yeah another reason i suppose sorcerer and warlock struggle :(

this string should only be used as a punish to get max damage. The mind game is there for you to go for the b2 so occasionally it can hit but its almost not worth the risk knowing quans bad wakeup game. In Summoner its useful because if they block it you just throw a bat out to cover your ass, or catch the backdash
 

Daemantalo

Not Good Enough
Okay, at first reading this I was extremely skeptical... But then I totally saw your point about F212 and the ease on hit-confirmation. I've noticed online lots of players are definitely conditioned to block low on Quan if they know the match up straight from the get go. B3 just seems so good to me, but not the rest of the string if it's blocked.
 

JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
Good write up Mayo, learned a couple of things about Quan.

Btw, B32 is amourable when B3 is blocked at max range, I found this out when testing gaps for armour and Kano's parries. It's very consistent, anything other than max range and there is no gap to armour.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Not too familiar with QC, but can't you use the B2/F3 as unsafe 50/50 vortex starters that leads to huge results? Similar to Ermac? Or is that what the issue is here?
 

Error

DF2+R2
Not too familiar with QC, but can't you use the B2/F3 as unsafe 50/50 vortex starters that leads to huge results? Similar to Ermac? Or is that what the issue is here?
Read the thread lol, he's offering solutions by using a different string.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Read the thread lol, he's offering solutions by using a different string.
Yea I saw that, but I'm not seeing what's actually wrong with this string. Why would people use it less because it has interruptable gaps or isn't safe? Why not use it just as often as an unreactable 50/50 tool that leads into vortex, that loops for more incredible damage? Like Ermac. Feels like it can be switched over as "don't use Ermac's full combo punishable 50/50 low option much", when its one of his best tools. Read wrong, get punished. Red right, high damage combo into vortex or massive corner damage. Seems fair to me.

I can see in Sorceror why to use it a little less, but in Warlock/Summoner I don't understand why players should or would fade away from B3 for F2 given B3's uses. I'm not saying the F2 string isn't good, I'm wondering why it would replace B3.
 

Error

DF2+R2
Yea I saw that, but I'm not seeing what's actually wrong with this string. Why would people use it less because it has interruptable gaps or isn't safe? Why not use it just as often as an unreactable 50/50 tool that leads into vortex, that loops for more incredible damage? Like Ermac. Feels like it can be switched over as "don't use Ermac's full combo punishable 50/50 low option much", when its one of his best tools. Read wrong, get punished. Red right, high damage combo into vortex or massive corner damage. Seems fair to me.

I can see in Sorceror why to use it a little less, but in Warlock/Summoner I don't understand why players should or would fade away from B3 for F2 given B3's uses. I'm not saying the F2 string isn't good, I'm wondering why it would replace B3.
Less risk I guess, Quan Chi can't really afford to get knocked down, so I see it making sense. And Ermac shouldn't be using his 50/50 too much, he has to do a lot of conditioning first with d3/air blasts etc to ensure he doesn't get himself blown-up when he goes for it.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Less risk I guess, Quan Chi can't really afford to get knocked down, so I see it making sense. And Ermac shouldn't be using his 50/50 too much, he has to do a lot of conditioning first with d3/air blasts etc to ensure he doesn't get himself blown-up when he goes for it.
Yea that's true. MU is pretty ugly when I can knock down or corner a QC.

Ermac on the other hand, I'll always be ready to blow up that 50/50. -.-
 

coolwhip

Noob
So as Kung Lao I basically have no reason not to ex spin after b32 and I get a full combo unless the Quan player makes a balsy read and completes the string?
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
Couldn't you just block and punish an armor attempt?

Or could you use 1,4 in the 1,4,1 string to go through the armor?
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
I´ll clear a few things up.

@Qwark28 is totally right about the OS armor. Characters can always OS the armor interrupt into a block and then blow up B324 anyway when it´s blocked.

No where in my thread, or in the replies, was anyone crying about this. This is a breakdown of flaws in the string and a change in strategy around it, so @OG Mannimal your snarkiness is not needed.

@SaltShaker I wasn´t saying that F2 is supposed to "replace" B3. I´m just saying that B3 is exclusively a punishing string or huge risk 50/50. It of course should still be used as a mixup option. But Quan Chi getting punished is a bigger deal than it is for most characters due to his high reliance on meter and no wakeup options once he´s down. So exposing yourself is a serious matter.

The fact that a large amount of the cast can OS armor reversal to blow up the string and still block the full string and punish anyway means that if B3 is blocked, a knowledgable opponent will kill you and then you´re dealing with knockdowns or vortexes. I made this post because I think Quan players are probably relying on B32 EX Rune a lot to keep themselves safe, throwing it out willy nilly as part of their pressure, when it actually does no such thing, unless you get lucky and they don´t blow it up.
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Good write up Mayo, learned a couple of things about Quan.

Btw, B32 is amourable when B3 is blocked at max range, I found this out when testing gaps for armour and Kano's parries. It's very consistent, anything other than max range and there is no gap to armour.
Thanks. Yeah this was listed at the top. "- B32 is armorable at certain collision points due to it's funky hitbox causing holes."