Strategy B1,2,1 Combo-Pressure - Viable or No?

[Bidu]

alot of people dont expect a f4 after b121, its great for mixing people up with that or 2,2

Yeah, F4 is a good bet.

 

[Dark_Rob]

The real mixup with b1,2,1 is between the throw and everything else. If you start throwing them alot after b1,2,1 its something like 42% total off a JIP,2,2,ice blast. They cant just keep eating that throw. Once they start trying to tech it thats when you can start 2,2/2,1,2, ice blast and get a 2nd combo. Watch the opponents meter. If they have a breaker they are much more likely to take the chance on teching the throw so Il usually 2,2 them if they have breaker. They break, and I take 2 bars of their meter. Just as good.

If your going to try a follow up combo after b1,2,1 I highly suggest either 2,2 or 2,1,2 because they are both easily hit confirmed while F4 is not hit confirmable. If they try to jump or tech a percieved incoming throw you can link ice blast after either 2,2 or 2,1,2. If they guess right and block you can finish 2,2 with 4,clone to make it safe or finish 2,1 with 2,clone or 4,clone making it safe(With the exception of fast advancing armor moves like Baraka's EX Blade charge)

But to set all this up you really have to abuse that throw. If all you ever do is blockstrings after b1,2,1 your not giving your opponent any incentive not to block. The throw will really test their patience after eating alot of them.

In short, throw the shit out of them after b1,2,1. Thats how you will get the really big damage later on.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

My question now... that we have actually evolved to this b1,2,1 string as a perfect BnB for Sub.... is that on JiP's do you just always b1,2? I'm starting to lean toward yes. It is very hit confirmable.... and links into freeze and clone just like 2,2 and 2,1. As much as I like doing 2,1 2,1 2,1,4 ... people at high levels adjust quick and can poke that.
If I do land the JiP... then I'm going to get max damage.

2,1 and 2,2 are much better strings to approach with I believe. Jumping really isn't something you want to do unless you are A)desperate or B) able to make a good read on a projectile or wakeup attack.

What do you guys think ?

 

[Dark_Rob]

My question now... that we have actually evolved to this b1,2,1 string as a perfect BnB for Sub.... is that on JiP's do you just always b1,2? I'm starting to lean toward yes. It is very hit confirmable.... and links into freeze and clone just like 2,2 and 2,1. As much as I like doing 2,1 2,1 2,1,4 ... people at high levels adjust quick and can poke that.
If I do land the JiP... then I'm going to get max damage.

2,1 and 2,2 are much better strings to approach with I believe. Jumping really isn't something you want to do unless you are A)desperate or B) able to make a good read on a projectile or wakeup attack.

What do you guys think ?

Its character and situation dependant. Because armor moves can interupt between B1 and 2 I will usually only use JIP,B1,2,ice blast on something like a jumped projectile when its guaranteed. Also even if they have an armor move to beat it, if they dont have meter you can use it as well. It isnt a bad string and like you say it does net more damage and Subby can always use that, as long as you remember that characters with meter and an armored move can interupt it.

B1 also doesnt seem to have the range that 2 does. So sometimes on things like a crossover JIP if you cross them up and end up a little further from them than youd like sometimes even if the JIP hits B1 will whiff especially if the JIP hits them while they are crouching while that doesnt seem to happen with 2,2 or 2,1.

 

[Name v.5.0]

I really only use it when the corner is close, it's a fantastic way to keep them from waking up and escaping your corner pressure. I usually follow it with D+4, 2,1,2 clone. This is because it puts the clone right on top of them. It allows you to come in and F+4, throw or my favorite, the jump kick, which if it hits, freezes them. If the jump kick is blocked you can usually get the throw anyway.

 

[Fatality_check]

I take it you have to time it right with the throw after B121? Because I swear I've tried it before and because of the animation it misses.

 

[Jim]

armor moves can interupt between B1 and 2

Can Cage's xray activate there as well? I know it can between 1 and 2 on 2,1,2 but not on 2,1,4.

 

[Dark_Rob]

I take it you have to time it right with the throw after B121? Because I swear I've tried it before and because of the animation it misses.

Yes you do. But it isnt hard once you know when to do it. Basically after b1,2,1 the stagger knocks them back and they briefly drop to one knee before pushing themselves back up. This is all recovery animation and they cannot move again until they are upright. Time the throw so that you grab them just as they rise back up to their feet.

Can Cage's xray activate there as well? I know it can between 1 and 2 on 2,1,2 but not on 2,1,4.

Yes it can. So be careful with your strings when Cage has xray. Cage isnt likely to have xray all that much in the Sub matchup though because he cant afford to save meter like that. He has to spend it to get in and he has to spend even more to keep that offense going.

 

[Bidu]

The real mixup with b1,2,1 is between the throw and everything else. If you start throwing them alot after b1,2,1 its something like 42% total off a JIP,2,2,ice blast. They cant just keep eating that throw. Once they start trying to tech it thats when you can start 2,2/2,1,2, ice blast and get a 2nd combo. Watch the opponents meter. If they have a breaker they are much more likely to take the chance on teching the throw so Il usually 2,2 them if they have breaker. They break, and I take 2 bars of their meter. Just as good.

If your going to try a follow up combo after b1,2,1 I highly suggest either 2,2 or 2,1,2 because they are both easily hit confirmed while F4 is not hit confirmable. If they try to jump or tech a percieved incoming throw you can link ice blast after either 2,2 or 2,1,2. If they guess right and block you can finish 2,2 with 4,clone to make it safe or finish 2,1 with 2,clone or 4,clone making it safe(With the exception of fast advancing armor moves like Baraka's EX Blade charge)

But to set all this up you really have to abuse that throw. If all you ever do is blockstrings after b1,2,1 your not giving your opponent any incentive not to block. The throw will really test their patience after eating alot of them.

In short, throw the shit out of them after b1,2,1. Thats how you will get the really big damage later on.

Most opponents will just back jump if you keep trying to throw over and over and over. Obviously they will be eating full combo if they guess wrong and instead of throwing you start some string. But still just going for raw throw over and over after b121 doesn't seem that much of a good idea to me. I'd prefer to miss with 21~throw once in a while for instance.

My question now... that we have actually evolved to this b1,2,1 string as a perfect BnB for Sub.... is that on JiP's do you just always b1,2? I'm starting to lean toward yes. It is very hit confirmable.... and links into freeze and clone just like 2,2 and 2,1. As much as I like doing 2,1 2,1 2,1,4 ... people at high levels adjust quick and can poke that.
If I do land the JiP... then I'm going to get max damage.

2,1 and 2,2 are much better strings to approach with I believe. Jumping really isn't something you want to do unless you are A)desperate or B) able to make a good read on a projectile or wakeup attack.

What do you guys think ?

b121 is really good for keeping close pressure, but I really wouldn't call it BnB. It's good to use against zonners that you struggle to keep close and/or against anyone else when you have life advantage. Obviously It's also very good in the corner, to follow up with 212~clone.

And yeah, I wouldn't trade 22 and 21 for b12.

I take it you have to time it right with the throw after B121? Because I swear I've tried it before and because of the animation it misses.

You have to wait a little bit after b121 lands. Practice it, it's not hard at all to learn the timing.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Most opponents will just back jump if you keep trying to throw over and over and over. Obviously they will be eating full combo if they guess wrong and instead of throwing you start some string. But still just going for raw throw over and over after b121 doesn't seem that much of a good idea to me. I'd prefer to miss with 21~throw once in a while for instance.

That is exactly the point I was making. The only point you missed was that is not about using the throw over and over and over. The entire purpose of the throw is to force your opponent to give up his guard in an attempt to avoid the throw. You will never accomplish this if all you do after hitting B1,2,1 is block strings. You WANT them to jump, you WANT them to try and tech. The throw is incentive not to just stand there and block. Once you are in their head with the throw thats when you will get the opportunity to get the really big damage by hitting the 2nd full combo immediatly after the first.
It is a mixup and like all mixups requires making good reads. But making good reads can be helped along a little by conditioning your opponent. The throw reminds them that they are not safe by standing there blocking. It forces them to make a choice and make a guess. Will they guess wrong everytime? Of course not. Nevertheless it is still in your advantage because it is YOU forcing THEM to guess.

It is by no means a guaranteed setup/reset like the one we previously had, but its a good one nonetheless and can quickly drive an opponent mad if he guesses wrong twice or more.

 

[Bidu]

Couldn't have said better.

What you have to say about when to use b121?

 

[Enenra]

Just like Dark Rob and Bidu said. Personally, it depends who I am fighting as well. If I need to be in there face constantly, B121. If I am the zoner, then 214 slide for the extra damage. In the corner I really like to B121 so they are just stuck there waiting to die.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Just like Dark Rob and Bidu said. Personally, it depends who I am fighting as well. If I need to be in there face constantly, B121. If I am the zoner, then 214 slide for the extra damage. In the corner I really like to B121 so they are just stuck there waiting to die.

you do realize that... 214 slide is the least damaging combo you can do? If you land a ground freeze... NJP, 1, 2,1,2~slide is much more damage... hell.... NJP, 1, 2,1,4 slide is more damage lol.

Didn't get to see Denzel's Sub today.... can't wait for it.

 

[Lord Beef]

Dumb question, been re working my sub after a little hiatus from mk and I've been wanting to ask someone on here, are there non-armored moves that can interrupt follow up pressure to b121? Like reps dash, kl spin, 6 frame down try pokes etc? my only reference is online and well, we all know how that is.. >_>

Sent from Somewhere to Somewhere Else

 

[Altaire]

The real mixup with b1,2,1 is between the throw and everything else. If you start throwing them alot after b1,2,1 its something like 42% total off a JIP,2,2,ice blast. They cant just keep eating that throw. Once they start trying to tech it thats when you can start 2,2/2,1,2, ice blast and get a 2nd combo. Watch the opponents meter. If they have a breaker they are much more likely to take the chance on teching the throw so Il usually 2,2 them if they have breaker. They break, and I take 2 bars of their meter. Just as good.

If your going to try a follow up combo after b1,2,1 I highly suggest either 2,2 or 2,1,2 because they are both easily hit confirmed while F4 is not hit confirmable. If they try to jump or tech a percieved incoming throw you can link ice blast after either 2,2 or 2,1,2. If they guess right and block you can finish 2,2 with 4,clone to make it safe or finish 2,1 with 2,clone or 4,clone making it safe(With the exception of fast advancing armor moves like Baraka's EX Blade charge)

But to set all this up you really have to abuse that throw. If all you ever do is blockstrings after b1,2,1 your not giving your opponent any incentive not to block. The throw will really test their patience after eating alot of them.

In short, throw the shit out of them after b1,2,1. Thats how you will get the really big damage later on.

Rob might be one of the only people who understand this reset. I do disagree slightly on the application, but at least he understands how it works.

Point blank, YOU DO NOT 2 2 AFTER A B1 2 1 RESET. It WILL whiff unless you time it perfectly, and there's just no reason to. Your best option after the B1 2 1 reset, initially, is to D4. After a D4, you have enough advantage for a dash in 2 1 2. If they try to jump out, you'll catch them just as they leave the ground, and you can confirm into an ice ball. If they block it, so what? You just got 3% for the D4 on top of 5% chip. On top of that, a smart opponent knows to block after any D4 that jails into a blockstring, which gives you an opportunity to follow a D4 with a throw instead. This part of the reset isn't for the damage; it's for the conditioning.

Once your opponent starts to respect the D4 option, he'll just start blocking low after the B1 2 1. THIS IS WHERE THE MIXUP SITUATION COMES INTO PLAY. You can then immediately follow the B1 2 1 with a throw, as your opponent will be committed to blocking low to prevent you from getting D4 advantage. You can also go for a much more risky option, and use F4 into ice ball: This completely resets the situation, allowing for his BnB combo or ANOTHER B1 2 1 reset. It also allows for the charge B2/B2 cancel mixup, which adds a whole other layer to the mixup game. Ask anyone who's played my Sub-Zero: I can rack up as much as 80% damage just by trapping you in these resets, especially in the corner. Sub's mixup game revolves around the B1 2 1 reset and the charge B2 reset. If you're utilizing both, you can really mindfuck your opponent.

Some examples of how to use the mixup:

B1 2 1, D4, 2 1 2

B1 2 1, D4, D4, 2 1 2

B1 2 1, throw

B1 2 1, D4, throw

B1 2 1, D4, 2 1, 2 1 2

B1 2 1, D4, 2 1, throw

B1 2 1, D4, D4, 2 1, 2 1 2

B1 2 1, F4 freeze, NJP, 1, 2 1 2 slide

B1 2 1, F4 freeze, charge B2 cancel, 2 2 freeze, JIP B1 2 1, D4, throw

B1 2 1, F4 freeze, charge B2 cancel, 2 2 freeze, JIP B1 2 1, D4, F4 freeze, (corner only) NJP, NJP, B1 2, 2 1 4

These are all purely hypothetical examples of how you could apply the B1 2 1 reset. I shit you not, the last one is something I did to J360's Quan Chi once. The trick with this reset is just to start simple. Keep doing your D4 into 2 1 2 for the free chip, and try to make your opponent think you aren't going to deviate. Once they're conditioned to thinking you're only going to go for that option, many more mixup options open up. If you take full advantage of them, you can really do some damage with Sub.

 

[Bidu]

Honestly? I'm still to see any move (enhanced or not) to break any string followed after b121. And that's offline or online, doesn't really matter.

 

[Lord Beef]

Honestly? I'm still to see any move (enhanced or not) to break any string followed after b121. And that's offline or online, doesn't really matter.

Kool deal. Then I need to work on timing the dash after b121. Thanks man, helped me find out what my problem was. Plus my connection kinda sucks as of late, I've had people manage to jump out, last night I got x rayed by a kano. Grr. Thanks again, good lord my sub is an experimental mess right now. ^_^

Sent from Somewhere to Somewhere Else

 

[Altaire]

Honestly? I'm still to see any move (enhanced or not) to break any string followed after b121. And that's offline or online, doesn't really matter.

It's not possible if you D4 while they're still in hitstun. If you F4, throw or 2 2/2 1 2 (which you shouldn't be doing anyway), there IS a small window where an armor move will break through. Against anyone with armor, I recommend keeping the mixups to a minimum, unless the armor move is punishable (in which case, you can try to bait it). Stick to your D4.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

It's not possible if you D4 while they're still in hitstun. If you F4, throw or 2 2/2 1 2 (which you shouldn't be doing anyway), there IS a small window where an armor move will break through. Against anyone with armor, I recommend keeping the mixups to a minimum, unless the armor move is punishable (in which case, you can try to bait it). Stick to your D4.

d4 on block is at disadvantage.... and if you can't time that window... then there is something wrong. It isn't a tiny window. It is very easy to get after a bit of practice. I can understand this more of an online thing, because that window can actually fluctuate. EVERYONE knows you have to block after that string hits. That in itself is the mixup. I know I can also see the timing being hit or missed on the other end of the spectrum... if he attacks to early I poke... if too late I jump, all the while holding down block. F4 is very easy to fuzzy guard. Again it all depends on that window and how well the Sub player can see it.

I agree more with Rob... I land the throw way more often than I land anything else. Amazingly, most players who understand the game... are also the ones who take the LEAST amount of risks... so the odds of them simply blocking are very high. In a long set... d4 comes into play, but why would I give up a potential 12-30% (and back in the same situation) for a mere d4 and a block string?

 

[Seapeople]

The window to throw or 22 after b121 actually is pretty small. Probably no more than 3-4 frames, but that doesnt mean you cant do it consistently.

I'm pretty sure that you cant armor to escape 22 or the throw, but i could be wrong. Even if you can, its probably a waste of meter. D4 is best against low hitbox characters because they can crouch punish 22. F4 is really risky so i tend to avoid it if possible.

I completely agree with Rob. Throw all day unless you need to play keep away, where you would use a block string into the clone instead.

Also, the b2 reset isnt nearly as good as the b121 setup, unless you need the unbreakable damage

 

[Enenra]

you do realize that... 214 slide is the least damaging combo you can do? If you land a ground freeze... NJP, 1, 2,1,2~slide is much more damage... hell.... NJP, 1, 2,1,4 slide is more damage lol.

Didn't get to see Denzel's Sub today.... can't wait for it.

Wait, you can connect 214 into the NJP combo? I took a break from Sub for awhile to play the cast, but I didn't realize it had been that long...

 

[Lord Beef]

Wait, you can connect 214 into the NJP combo? I took a break from Sub for awhile to play the cast, but I didn't realize it had been that long...

Yeah, you just leave out the b12. And catch em with 214 on the way down from the bounce.

Sent from Somewhere to Somewhere Else

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I even wrote the combo I wanted to write wrong. I meant the NJP, 1, b1,2 2,1,2~slide (4 if carried to corner)... is the one I meant. I hardly ever slide in the corner unless to kill now.

Isn't 3-4 frames a fairly large window when the opponent is staggered? I have to retrain myself to jump in with 2,2 more often... I tend to catch people in 2,1,2 freeze... and that isn't a great amount of damage or mixup. Stupid reset!!!

I use b2... mainly if I need a desperate comeback factor. Most people notice I "mis-time" it... so they think they can escape... then I cancel and 2,2. To me that is the best application, when you are down a ton and need a way to comeback.

 

[Playpal]

D4 is not disadvantage.