General/Other - Ninjitsu Anyone else feels that Ninjutsu is missing something?

[Ze Dingo]

Ninjutsu Scorpion was my decided main when MK X came out. I was very chuffed when he got the damage buffs and scaling improvements. Even now, though, I feel he is just missing something. I can't quite figure out what it is. Maybe he is a little too honest?

I honestly feel that the second hit of F2 could be an overhead or he gains the hell fire move from Hellfire variation.

If the second hit is an overhead, it is reactable, but can still catch people out. If he gains hellfire, you can bait out a jump and punish with B2, but still get punished hard if they score the jump in or succumb to pressure because your armour options aren't brilliant.

Anyone else feel the same way? This is purely my opinion, nothing more. Feel free to discuss / blow me up.

@Slips @YOMI RM JagoBlake @JTB123

 

[Daemantalo]

I didn't even read the post. Let me guess, he is missing a quick Overhead?

 

[Ze Dingo]

I didn't even read the post. Let me guess, he is missing a quick Overhead?

Wrong guess, but feel free to keep assuming without reading.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Scorpion walks like a turtle, walkback speed needs to be increased

 

[Daemantalo]

Wrong guess, but feel free to keep assuming without reading.

Damn. Good thing I wasn't on WHO WANTS TO BE A MILLIONAIRE!

 

[STRYKIE]

I get what you mean, but I'm not sure what else can be feasibly added to the variation within the confines of what NRS can or want to do.

Unless Takedown is made safe, I don't see the 2nd hit of F2 being an overhead being much help.

I didn't even read the post. Let me guess, he is missing a quick Overhead?

Well the Kano forums are rather ungrateful about Cutthroat's overhead, so if you're offering....

 

[GamerBlake90]

The point of the Ninjutsu variation is to control space, not play an overhead/low mix-up game. If any part of his F2 were to become overhead, he'd probably go from honest to HELLA dishonest.

I don't think giving the variation his Hellfire special would be necessary, either. He already has the teleport for anti-zoning, plus the ability to spend stamina to fake it or go full-screen. Besides, wouldn't that destroy the goal of the variation system?

Personally, I'm quite satisfied with what Ninjutsu brings and feel no need to ask for anything.

Scorpion walks like a turtle, walkback speed needs to be increased

He does have a pretty good backdash, though.

 

[Prinz]

If anything - a little more damage. Otherwise he's fine.

 

[Daemantalo]

I get what you mean, but I'm not sure what else can be feasibly added to the variation within the confines of what NRS can or want to do.

Unless Takedown is made safe, I don't see the 2nd hit of F2 being an overhead being much help.



Well the Kano forums are rather ungrateful about Cutthroat's overhead, so if you're offering....

Sure STRYKIE. Can I have your vortex and JiK air teleport conversions? Fair trade, no?

 

[GamerBlake90]

If anything - a little more damage. Otherwise he's fine.

He can already get around 35% meterless damage on a consistent basis, AND end combos for a restand, so why would he need another damage buff?

Unless Takedown is made safe, I don't see the 2nd hit of F2 being an overhead being much help..

I'm not sure why Takedown was made unsafe to begin with...at the very least, -5 or -6 on block would have been acceptable.

 

[STRYKIE]

Sure STRYKIE. Can I have your vortex and JiK air teleport conversions? Fair trade, no?

If it existed then yeah maybe.

I'm not sure why Takedown was made unsafe to begin with...at the very least, -5 or -6 on block would have been acceptable.

Man, the less said about Takedown in general, the better, lol.

Only reason I can think of as to why it's so unsafe could be because of how fast it is on startup, but then you look at Kano's EX upball and ask yourself what the hell happened...

 

[Eddy Wang]

The point of the Ninjutsu variation is to control space, not play an overhead/low mix-up game. If any part of his F2 were to become overhead, he'd probably go from honest to HELLA dishonest.

I don't think giving the variation his Hellfire special would be necessary, either. He already has the teleport for anti-zoning, plus the ability to spend stamina to fake it or go full-screen. Besides, wouldn't that destroy the goal of the variation system?

Personally, I'm quite satisfied with what Ninjutsu brings and feel no need to ask for anything.



He does have a pretty good backdash, though.

The problem is not escaping, He has a solid Tele away cancel for that and is much more faster than his backdash and in many cases tele cancel is even better because it switches sides, even if it doesn't have that invincibility propriety.

The problem is, some characters have normals that travels half screen, and scorpion won't space out properly for a whiff punish, specially when you want to stand your ground for a bigger threat, u poke out to get that +2 on block to bait a whiff, their normal will hit you trying to space out.

He is a great character, i don't believe he needs overheads, i just think he needs to walk back slightly faster, for a character that doesn't have a good defense, poor wakeup game, but needs to excel with a good neutral in all variations, his walkspeed is much needed.

 

[GamerBlake90]

The problem is not escaping, He has a solid Tele away cancel for that and is much more faster than his backdash and in many cases tele cancel is even better because it switches sides, even if it doesn't have that invincibility propriety.

The problem is, some characters have normals that travels half screen, and scorpion won't space out properly for a whiff punish, specially when you want to stand your ground for a bigger threat, u poke out to get that +2 on block to bait a whiff, their normal will hit you trying to space out.

He is a great character, i don't believe he needs overheads, i just think he needs to walk back slightly faster, for a character that doesn't have a good defense, poor wakeup game, but needs to excel with a good neutral in all variations, his walkspeed is much needed.

Can't say I've had the problem you're describing, but then again, my ninja is still very young.

 

[Eddy Wang]

He can already get around 35% meterless damage on a consistent basis, AND end combos for a restand, so why would he need another damage buff?



I'm not sure why Takedown was made unsafe to begin with...at the very least, -5 or -6 on block would have been acceptable.

Its Takedown was made safe, Ninjutsu would have safe overhead low mixups with 212 and 21~takedown, and that would be pretty annoying to deal with.

 

[Prinz]

He can already get around 35% meterless damage on a consistent basis, so why would he need another damage buff?



I'm not sure why Takedown was made unsafe to begin with...at the very least, -5 or -6 on block would have been acceptable.

Just that he gets more complaining threads instead of buff ones. Imo a character needs some controversial properties. A damage increase of 3-4% would do that. This I think should be the core of this character - range and damage. Damage has already been decreased though, so I don't see this happening anyway.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Its Takedown was made safe, Ninjutsu would have safe overhead low mixups with 212 and 21~takedown, and that would be pretty annoying to deal with.

Good point. I'll hold that.

Just that he gets more complaining threads instead of buff ones. Imo a character needs some controversial properties. A damage increase of 3-4% would do that. This I think should be the core of this character - range and damage.

Both are areas Scorpion already excels at, in my opinion.

 

[STRYKIE]

Its Takedown was made safe, Ninjutsu would have safe overhead low mixups with 212 and 21~takedown, and that would be pretty annoying to deal with.

I've already tried this, in it's current state it's fuzzyable as hell lol.

 

[Prinz]

Good point. I'll hold that.



Both are areas Scorpion already excels at, in my opinion.

Yeah, but no one complains about, so it's not good enough.

 

[Eddy Wang]

If anything - a little more damage. Otherwise he's fine.

Ninjutsu damage is pretty good that meter is basically irrelevant and has other purposes on his game plan, as trip guard with ex tele and make 214 safe with a spear when you don't want to give up space or want to punish the next retaliation with tele cancel.

Scorpion doesn't need more damage.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I've already tried this, in it's current state it's fuzzyable as hell lol.

Still works, also you can grab the hell out of someone trying to fuzzy block the overhead/low mix up as well, if Takedown is made safe, it will layer up other options as ex takedown to beat retaliations, poke with standing 1, and more throw setups for days, which he is already good at.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Guys, this variation is in a good place. Look at the tools available to you:

- an armor-crushing F2 made safe when spaced, or at least less negative.
- a B2 that practically goes slightly more than half the screen, catching anybody foolish enough to jump or whiff at that range (for close range jump-ins, you D2 or run under for trip-guard).
- you have a solid poking game in a 6-frame D1, a 7-frame D3, and an 8-frame D4.
- a 6-frame jumpkick that leads to high meterless damage and is great for air-to-airs.
- high meterless damage, so most of the time you'll conserve meter for armor or breakers.
- the ability to restand the opponent after a full combo.
- hit-and-run tactics by cancelling blockstrings into a teleport to put you full-screen, or switch sides to confuse them.
- you don't want a good backwards walk-speed, you want a good forwards walk-speed, and you have that along with a good run speed. This ensures you keep your opponent in F2 range which is where we thrive.
- a teleport to punish most zoners who try to chuck projectiles at you.
- a great backdash.

I do not see what else we could need. For those arguing about Scorpion's weakness to pressure, it can be a problem, but it's the price you pay for how well you control space. At least we have armor on EX Teleport if used as a wake-up (not when delayed, though), and it too can be used to go full-screen or trade sides.

I may play Kitana as well, but I feel I could rock Ninjutsu against the entire cast if I felt like it.

EDIT: To add to this, we have solid anti-airs and none of our pokes are punishable on block - at least, I have yet to see this happen. I've also made use of tick throw set-ups which really do their job opening the opponent up.

 

[JTB123]

A lot has already been covered but I really don't think Ninjutsu is missing anything apart from a safe special and when you look at his moves it basically means making takedown safe which would not be the worst thing. He controls space and chews up armour very well in this variation.

I think the reason you rarely see Ninjutsu is because it is very hard to use effectively, you have to be very aware of the range of your opponents attacks at all times and shut down their offense every time they try to initiate it. Good players aren't going to walk into F2 and B2 all day and without them you are left with his punishment tools which is still great but only useable when they make a mistake.

While he does struggle under pressure, his teleport leaves the screen in minimum of 5 frames, this enables you to teleport out of pressure as opposed to armour and if it's against a character that has pressure with a lot of recovery in it then you can cancel the teleport and punish them with S1 or F3 if they are far away. Being able to escape pressure and punish for a full combo without meter is something very few characters can do in this game and it's one of Scorpions best tools in my opinion.

 

[Error404]

My biggest problem with this variation is that it just feels boring because of the lack of special moves.I'll not comment on its balance since i haven't played it since the last patch though.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Thanks for your insights everyone.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Also, it's nice to see that the Scorpion forums can have a civil discussion without shit-slinging.