Match Footage Another "How does my SZ look?" Thread

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Hi folks,

A few weeks ago, I competed at a local tournament here in Indy. It consisted of us local folk, as well as some GGA players.

I've never done one of these before, so I thought that I would go ahead and start now. I've got some recorded matches of me from that tournament weekend that I would like to request that you fine folk critique the hell out of! Don't hold anything back, as I will really appreciate any input that you guys have.

GGA Soonk vs. Semi Evil Ryu (I seriously drop a corner combo here)

GGA Dizzy vs. Semi Evil Ryu (I learn that I that shouldn't even try to cross-up jump-in on Cage)

Semi Evil Ryu vs. Osirun (I learn that I don't fight enough Baraka's)

Chauncy vs. Semi Evil Ryu

Semi Evil Ryu vs. Fredator

 

[loogie]

Ggs.
More slides vs Kabal... I always get them with the slide, somehow they rarely block low while machine gun or ndc cancel midscreen to close gap.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Most of the things you did off of a knockdown don't really work offline ... crossing up in the corner is the main one.

To me it looked like you respected Dizzy because ... well... he's Dizzy. You were very hesitant to even approach him. Can't play like that. Overall you played more counter punch than "set up". Don't let JC out of the corner. You would of taken at least a couple of rounds if you would have simply played footsie in the corner with a clone up. You simply walked away and never applied any type of stress.

Good things are that you seem to adjust to some mistakes... almost like you tested your opponent (tech roll clone, cross overs etc).

Honestly, you had Soonk a couple of times, you just let him off the hook. I wouldn't advise sliding unless you are close enough to catch him in the air. rather... try to guess when he'll throw the ground saw and trade. End with 2,2,2~clone in the corner and he can't armor out for free.

I'd say just work on your footsie game with d4 and 2,2 to approach people rather than jumping in as much.

 

[WinterWolf94]

try using 214 on block instead of always using 212, so u wont get punished by things like that xray by JC

 

[Big Pampering]

Most of the things you did off of a knockdown don't really work offline ... crossing up in the corner is the main one.

To me it looked like you respected Dizzy because ... well... he's Dizzy. You were very hesitant to even approach him. Can't play like that. Overall you played more counter punch than "set up". Don't let JC out of the corner. You would of taken at least a couple of rounds if you would have simply played footsie in the corner with a clone up. You simply walked away and never applied any type of stress.

Good things are that you seem to adjust to some mistakes... almost like you tested your opponent (tech roll clone, cross overs etc).

Honestly, you had Soonk a couple of times, you just let him off the hook. I wouldn't advise sliding unless you are close enough to catch him in the air. rather... try to guess when he'll throw the ground saw and trade. End with 2,2,2~clone in the corner and he can't armor out for free.

I'd say just work on your footsie game with d4 and 2,2 to approach people rather than jumping in as much.

Uhm ex nutpunch to the balls?

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Thanks, guys. I've recently found a local scene here, so I'm going to be able to start getting tons of offline experience.

And I fear Cage's f+3, 3 mixup's like it's the fucking plague, lol. I hate it when I get caught in that, which is why I tried to keep it a bit of a ranged fight.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Uhm ex nutpunch to the balls?

lol. When you fear things like this... you lose. Plain and simple. He never gain enough of a life lead to play like he did.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Idk, to me it seemed like you used the clone way too much. Like seems like every time you were knocked down, you cloned... you'd finish a string then clone. Basically ending your pressure and throwing them out too much and too predictably... especially against Soonk and Dizzy, they knew when you were going to do them and were able to avoid them.

I've heard that not having the clone on the screen is better than having it there. That's something I need to work on as well.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

All we can do is give you tips. You have the concept down. Simply put... fundamentals and some good guesses are really the whole game.

 

[Wemfs]

Most of the things you did off of a knockdown don't really work offline ... crossing up in the corner is the main one.

None of these matches were online. They all were offline.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

None of these matches were online. They all were offline.

hence why he got blown up for doing those things.

 

[Wemfs]

hence why he got blown up for doing those things.

He didn't get blown up too bad.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

He didn't get blown up too bad.

that wasn't my point.
I was just pointing out that there were many things that he tried to do... that typically online players do.
Those types of things get you blown up... an it happened. He tried to cross up dizzy after a knock down multiple times... and each time he was d1 AA'd and punished.

 

[Wemfs]

So he can still cross up dizzy after a knock down, just go for a kick instead of a punch.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

So he can still cross up dizzy after a knock down, just go for a kick instead of a punch.

Sub Zero doesn't ever have to cross up JC on knockdown. But again, regardless, that isn't the point. I was simply pointing out that online tactics don't work, and it was proven.

I agree with you, I thought he performed very well.... just seemed intimidated by the name.

 

[Big Pampering]

lol. When you fear things like this... you lose. Plain and simple. He never gain enough of a life lead to play like he did.

I dont know, subzero doesnt need to corner johnny cage to win. if he lands that nutpunch and crosses you over and starts his f3 pressure, youre basically done.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

I dont know, subzero doesnt need to corner johnny cage to win. if he lands that nutpunch and crosses you over and starts his f3 pressure, youre basically done.

sigh

I don't know what to really say. I don't know if you use either character. But your VERY VERY basic generalization of the matchup is incorrect. Especially basing it off of one exMove

 

[Big Pampering]

sigh

I don't know what to really say. I don't know if you use either character. But your VERY VERY basic generalization of the matchup is incorrect. Especially basing it off of one exMove

I dont see how that isnt possible... how would the sonya matchup be without ex cartwheel? And how am I describing the whole matchup just by saying you dont need to corner johnny cage to win? ofcourse you can corner him, but you cant be over agressive against johnny cage. And I use johnny cage and I know the matchups is pretty bad for johnny cage. I have played johnny cage enough to know that subzero needs to back up a lot, johnny needs to get in and he is gonna get caught by those clones.

 

[Truth]

SemiEvilRyu I watched your matches versus Soonk's Kabal and Dizzy's Cage, and will try to provide some feedback. I will start with Kabal:
-One of SZ's hardest MUs because Kabal's runaway game is one of the best in the game; he can easily keep SZ out, but when threatened just as easily apply pressure. One of the mistakes a lot of us SZs players make is when those iAGBs start firing up like a machine gun, we try to sit there and wait.

-You can't do that against Kabal because you are allowing him to build meter and potentially time you out; Kabal is at his weakest without meter because he can't check you with Ex-Dash. You should try practicing do Dash D3s from full screen to avoid the iAGBs and once you're half screen, you should look to block low in case if Kabal checks you with the saw (you can jump it as well if you predict it).

-If Kabal does a iAGB near sweep range you can try to dash 22 him, slide him, or the riskier option try to trade a air-to-air JK or JP with him.

-On knockdowns in the corner, I suggest you to just block high and eat the saw to atleast keep him trapped. If Kabal starts doing iAGBs in the corner, don't be afraid to slide him.

-On blocked strings, always do 212~clone against Kabal because he can't throw a saw without getting frozen and sometimes it catches him during the iAGBs. All you have to do is watch for the Ex-dash or for the empty jump, so practice on dash blocking in once the clone is up.

-On hit strings, always attempt to end with 222 since it protects you against the wakeup dash, as well as take away the idea of jumping out of the corner.

-Lastly, the most important thing in this MU is learning Kabal's ndc frame data so you know when to jump out, poke out, etc. Master D labels SZ a 2 on "Kabal's pressure system" meaning that you can only be hit with the F3 and B1 variant mixups. When you are being pressured make sure to be in a crouch state since you don't want be blocking 2~ndc (it will whiff on SZ when he crouches), but if you are ever blocking that move then Kabal is at +9/+10 (depends on their timing) if their execution is on point.

-F3~ndc will leave Kabal neutral on block, so you can poke out easily with D3, however, F3,2~ncd leaves Kabal +2 so he can beat out your D3, meaning that you must block the D3, but in doing so allows you to escape pressure since Kabal is -7. Though this requires you to poke back immediately since there is no blockstun on downpokes. I have played Kabals that once they realized I was attempting to poke after F3,2~ndc, they would immediately do F4 (turns into a 7 frame move because of the +2) to crush my D3 so watch out for this (blocking F4 leaves Kabal -11 allowing to escape pressure easily).

-The same ideas apply to B1~ndc, it leaves Kabal +1 and B1,2~ndc leaves Kabal +2. If Kabal players start doing something common such as F3,2~ndc, F3~2... you can guess your way out with 22 since 2 is 9 frames and the next F3 after ndc becomes 11 frames, but you have to see it coming or else you can be blown up.

Hope this helps

BTW: Check these threads/videos for more information: http://www.testyourmight.com/threads/kabal-frame-data.9693/

 

[salvificblood]

Crossing Kabal up in the corner is a bad idea.

I don't play against a lot of Kabal so I won't comment too much except to say that you have to utilise the slide more and learn the timing on it a bit better. There are certain times you can sneak slides in. Watch Tom's Sub against the Kabal's he plays against and watch Denzell's Sub, too, they both really know when to use the slide. It's not completely "random". Knowing when to use the slide is probably the make or break thing for sub-Zero in some of these matchups.

I play Foxy's Cage a lot and Foxy is the best Cage in the world as far as I am concerned (he's the only one who wins at majors with him, so...) so I will say more on this. General things would be: you're not maximizing your damage output. You should be doing a jip before your b121, and after b121 you just want to 214, clone and make him peace out on the other side of the screen. You don't need to throw Cage afterwards a lot, you just want to take your damage, chip and meter and go and chill with some spacing. You were also throing iceballs from the wrong spacing. You can't actually throw too many iceballs against cage from where you think you can because his jump in kicks into f3, nut punch are ridiculous. I have started b2 cancelling at 3/4 screen distance (back dash cancel) to bait jumps now, so I can make him whiff his jk and then d4 or blockstring. . He won't typically throw forceballs at this range either because you can cancel into a slide to punish. Playing cage is just all about good spacing. You don't need to pressure his wakeup with crossups or with anything else, I make it look s though I am going to go in for pressure and then usually back up outside the range of the nutpunch so the worst that can happen is he ex shadow kicks me to the other side of the screen. Clone will stophim doing anything else and if you don't clone, you canpotentially whiff punish the wakeup nut punch.

Never cross johnny cage up in the corner. Typically, crossing people up in the corner isn't a good idea but it really is suicide against Cage. All his frame traps work in the corner. 11f1 is plus 3 on block, and you can't jump back in the corner to avoid f3 so you're going to eat a monolithic amount of chip as soon as your back's to the wall. You can ex slide out, but you put your whole lifebar on the line to do it. You don't need to put yourself in that situation. You want to make him chill in that corner for as long as you possibly can. let him try to make a read to get out and blow up any mistakes. You can't pressure cage or play offensively against him. F3 is ridiculous and will get you blown up for trying to 21/22 more often than not. get the lifelead and clone him out.

One thing all Sub's need to start doing, including myself, is ex sliding out of pressure rather than using breaker. Cage cannot afford to eat 2-3 ex slides per round...

Even though it's a 6/4 in Sub's favour it's a matchup you have to play immacculately to win, same for cage. Whoever has the better spacing and footsies will win the day.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

OMG Sal is doing exSlide instead of breaker to. Hell yeah. I knew it would catch on.

 

[NB Semi Evil Ryu]

Information overload!

Hehe, thanks guy. I'm gonna find the time to sit down, this weekend, and process all of the feedback.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

-Lastly, the most important thing in this MU is learning Kabal's ndc frame data so you know when to jump out, poke out, etc. Master D labels SZ a 2 on "Kabal's pressure system" meaning that you can only be hit with the F3 and B1 variant mixups. When you are being pressured make sure to be in a crouch state since you don't want be blocking 2~ndc (it will whiff on SZ when he crouches), but if you are ever blocking that move then Kabal is at +9/+10 (depends on their timing) if their execution is on point.

-F3~ndc will leave Kabal neutral on block, so you can poke out easily with D3, however, F3,2~ncd leaves Kabal +2 so he can beat out your D3, meaning that you must block the D3, but in doing so allows you to escape pressure since Kabal is -7. Though this requires you to poke back immediately since there is no blockstun on downpokes. I have played Kabals that once they realized I was attempting to poke after F3,2~ndc, they would immediately do F4 (turns into a 7 frame move because of the +2) to crush my D3 so watch out for this (blocking F4 leaves Kabal -11 allowing to escape pressure easily).

-The same ideas apply to B1~ndc, it leaves Kabal +1 and B1,2~ndc leaves Kabal +2. If Kabal players start doing something common such as F3,2~ndc, F3~2... you can guess your way out with 22 since 2 is 9 frames and the next F3 after ndc becomes 11 frames, but you have to see it coming or else you can be blown up.

OMG I LOVE YOU!

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Crossing Kabal up in the corner is a bad idea.
You can't pressure cage or play offensively against him. F3 is ridiculous and will get you blown up for trying to 21/22 more often than not. get the lifelead and clone him out.

And that my friend, is why I can not beat Cage.... despite it being in SZ's favor. I'm way too impatient to play the "wait on the other side of the screen" game. SMH

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

And that my friend, is why I can not beat Cage.... despite it being in SZ's favor. I'm way too impatient to play the "wait on the other side of the screen" game. SMH

you don't have to sit on the other side of the screen. You just... have to keep your space JC has no personal space boundaries.