Question A Possible New Tournament Option - The Chance Method

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Pangolin-man, Dec 26, 2017.

  1. Pangolin-man

    Pangolin-man My trusty sidekick is not amused!

    Hello All,

    I have an idea for a new way to play a tournament. To preface my idea, I have been thinking about this for a while and would like to explain my thinking. I have been playing NRS games since the original MK back in the early 90s. I stopped for a while but was brought back by Injustice. I love both Injustice 1 and 2 as well as MKX. I am just a casual but do enjoy high level play and watch some touraments.

    One thing I always notice between all of these games, as well as other games such as SFIV and SF5, Marvel, Tekken, etc., is all of the discussions about tier lists, which characters are good, counter-picking, etc. Most tournaments tend to come down to seeing the same characters over and over again while never seeing most members of the roster in any game. Then a patch comes, and you see 3 different characters over and over again. The most notorious examples for NRS games of this phenomenon were the never-ending Kabal/Kung Lao/Cyrax show in MK9 and the Superman/Black Adam show in Injustice 1.

    Don't get me wrong, I love these games. And MKX and Injustice 2 have more tournament character variety than MK9 and Injustice 1. I personally think Injustice 2 is pretty well balanced, although Green Lantern is my favorite character, and he is not very good.

    I try to play with character variety. I always play at least 4 characters for each of these games, and a whole bunch more for Injustice 2.

    Here is the list of every character that I try to use in ranked matches and on-line play for Injustice 2.
    1. My mains - Green Lantern, Atrocitus, Starfire, Hellboy
    2. My secondaries - Brainiac, Wonder Woman, Cheetah, Scarecrow
    3. Others that I play - Gorilla Grodd, Swamp Thing, Aquaman, TMNT when they come out

    This is a total of at least 12 characters, depending on whether TMNT is 1 combined character or not. Therefore, I would like to introduce a concept that maybe someone could try in a tournament to see if it would work, and most importantly, introduce more character variety. Let me know what you guys think. So here goes...

    My idea - The Chance Method of Tournament Play

    What does this mean - I think these games should have more variety in character play and should take a concept from another game, namely poker, that would help to ensure more variety. This concept is called "Play the cards you are dealt."

    Using Injustice 2 as an example, when the game is finished with DLC it will have a total of at least 38 characters, depending of course on if TMNT is 1 character or each turtle is a separate variation like Tri-borg with his 4 variations. Part one involves spliting the 38 characters into 5 tiers. Tier 1 are the strongest characters with the rest of the tiers descending in order to Tier 5 which are the worst characters. Since 38 divided by 5 is an uneven number, here is how many characters go into each tier. Obviously, this will change if the turtles are each their own character.

    Tier 1 (Best) - 7 characters
    Tier 2 (Good) - 8 characters
    Tier 3 (Average) - 8 characters
    Tier 4 (Poor) - 8 characters
    Tier 5 (Bad) - 7 characters

    These 5 tiers will be determined by polling of the top players in the game on this site or a site related to official tournaments like E-League, EVO, etc.

    Once tiers are established, then the tournament runners post the tiers before the start of the tournment. Each player in the tournament has to pick 5 characters, one from each tier, and has to stick with them for the whole tournament. The tournament runners should keep a list of everybody's team and enforce the rules accordingly. An example would be the following:
    Player One
    Tier 1 - Supergirl
    Tier 2 - Scarecrow
    Tier 3 - Harley Quinn
    Tier 4 - Green Lantern
    TIer 5 - Joker
    Player Two
    Tier 1 - Catwoman
    Tier 2 - Atrocitus
    Tier 3 - Firestorm
    Tier 4 - Sub-zero
    Tier 5 - Cyborg

    Each gaming station would then have a stack of cards numbered 1 through 5. One of the two players shuffles the cards face down and then the other picks a card. They then reverse the process. If player one picks a 3, then that player has to use Harley Quinn for the first game in the match. If player two picks a 4, then that player has to use Sub-zero. You could use dice for this as well and you just use the number rolled for the selection. If the player rolls a six, then you just roll again. I do not believe that this will add much if any time to the tournament considering how many people will linger on the character select screen after a loss. If anything it would make it quicker because once the number is picked, the player has to pick that character.

    Then, the stage select must always be put on random, so neither player can pick a stage to their advantage. After the first match, the loser can choose to pick a card again or roll the dice again. However, the cards must be reshuffled. Therefore, you could get lucky and get your Tier 1 character or have a bad roll and get your Tier 5 character. Then, the stage would have to be randomly selected again.

    In other words you have to play the cards you are dealt.

    So to reiterate...
    1. Create a 5 Tier character list from experts each tournament could use.
    2. Each entrant into a tournament has to create a team of 5 characters, 1 from each tier.
    3. Each gaming station has a stack or cards or dice to determine which characters each player uses.
    4. After each match, the loser can re-try the cards or dice to get a new character. However, the cards or dice will determine which character the player uses.
    5. Stage select is always random before the start of the first game, and after each time the losing player changes characters. If the losing player chooses to keep the same character after a match, the stage stays the same.
    6. All teams and rules are monitored by both tournament runners as well as all players and entrants.

    I think this will help to introduce more character variety as well as strategy. If a player loses the first round with their Tier 3 character against the other player's Tier 2 character, then they can take the chance of getting a better character, the same character, or a worse character. Moreover, they have to consider if a stage change would also affect the match. This makes strategical decisions even more important.

    I think this will help to eliminate seeing the same characters over and over again as well a punish players who only use high-tier characters while rewarding players who use many different characters regardess of tier. It will also demonstrate who really are the best players by showing who can win with a variety of characters in a variety of ways and settings.

    In other games and sports, you have to adapt to the current situation. In poker, you have to play the hand you have. You don't get pocket aces every time. Therefore, you should not get to use Catwoman or Black Adam every time. You might have to use Joker and Cyborg. In football, you might lose your starting quaterback for the season. Your back-up is not as good but you have to move forward. Aaron Rodgers is out for the year. You have to go with Brett Hundley. Therefore, if you can't use Supergirl, you are going to have to try to win with Swamp Thing instead.

    I think this will help E-sports, and fighing games in particular, become more interesting, competitive, and strategic. It will show who is the best all-around and most adaptive player.

    In other words, who plays the cards they are dealt the best.

    Let me know what you guys think. I think this would be a lot of fun.
  2. Sir Snibbor

    Sir Snibbor Lord of Thunder
    Premium Supporter

    I think it's definitely an interesting idea, but I also think it defeats the purpose of high level tournament play in the first place. The experts who would be creating these "tier lists" are presumably the same ones who would be playing the game in tournement, and they have no reason to handicap themselves by limiting their freedom in characters. Everyone has access to the same characters, it's up to each player to use that character to its full potential if they want to succeed in a high level setting. The element of randomness in character choice that you're suggesting, while potentially interesting to viewers, would probably turn competitive players off to the game. Nobody wants to have to play through a set when their opponent could just get lucky, get their tier 1 immediately and then you are basically screwed if you don't also get lucky. Keep in mind, these players are playing for money. Obviously you can still outplay your opponent, but I don't think that adding that randomness in character choice would help the FGC overall.

    Counterpicking itself is a strategy too. Winning that game 1 is really significant in tournament because it allows you much more freedom in character choice should you eventually lose a game yourself. Part of knowing your character is knowing their winning and losing MUs, so if you decide to play a character with a lot of losing MUs then you should expect to get counterpicked often. And this bit is just my opinion, but I really don't think the character diversity in tournament is all that bad for INJ2. I mean yea obviously you're going to see a lot of Supergirl and Catwoman in tournement pools but if you look at the top 8s they're usually pretty diverse. The last one I watched was northern arena and the grand finals were between Robin and Firestorm, two characters I think most people would agree are not top 5.
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2017
  3. SonicNinja3532

    SonicNinja3532 The Wannabe Prodigy

    Nope. Terrible idea.

    Limiting the amount of characters people can use will always hinder them as it can potentially fuck up their chances.

    Lets make a hypothetical scenario. Say player A chooses 5 characters from each tier, and player B chooses his 5. What happens if player B's tier 1 character beats all of player A's character's 7-3? He's fucked. But what if player A had a character that went even with or beat player B's tier 1 character? He cant select him to give himself a chance, he has to ride it out. That isnt fair on him.

    Fighting games should never be based on chance, there's a reason why nearly every aspect of the gameplay is consistent as possible. Adding this may make it more fun as a spectator, but spectators arguably should never be the focus of a tournament, as something like this could be extremely unbalanced for some people. Unless you have a game where every character goes 5-5 with each other(which was only ever done in street fighter 1 where ryu and ken were literal clones), you'll never see this, because it fucks over competors and adds an unnecessary element of luck, which in fighting games should be avoided as much as physically possible.
    Roy Arkon likes this.
  4. SonicNinja3532

    SonicNinja3532 The Wannabe Prodigy

    Actually I just realised how much worse this idea is because you want them to literally have a random select out of their 5 characters instead of having the option to at least choose out of the 5 characters they have available. This isnt fun. Not only does it not allow them to choose which takes a lot of the freedom out of tournaments, but it again makes it about luck.

    Alongside this, two more issues arise.

    Firstly, it will be nearly impossible to be able to sort the characters into the categories since people still to this day disagree on tier lists pretty wide spread.

    Secondly, and the biggest issue of this, what about the people who don't play five characters? If player A only plays one character, what can he do? Is he forced to have to pick random characters he doesnt play?
    Roy Arkon likes this.
  5. wsj515

    wsj515 I will spit on your tomb

    It reminds me a lot of the bidding format, where players bid money in order to use a character. I remember it was done at least once during MKX and it was super fun to watch.
  6. Invincible Salads

    Invincible Salads Plz go easy on me

    lets play fighting games, Dungeons & dragons edition :D
  7. Cobainevermind87

    Cobainevermind87 Mid-match beer sipper

    I think it would be better if both players had to use a character from the same tier, but weren't limited to some character they previously designated as their B tier representative for example. So basically, the players come up, a tier is randomly chosen somehow, and it's game on. Of course the tiers would need to be determined and and included in the tourney info when it's announced months prior. If that means the newest DLC character(s) gets left out of the tourney, so be it.

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