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Question - A-List A - List vs Dvorah

llabslb

R1D1_998
These morons are trying to make it seem like this thread is a downplaying thread. Someone literally asked how to handle a certain match up rather than complaining about it and demanding for nerfs.
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Premium Supporter
These morons are trying to make it seem like this thread is a downplaying thread. Someone literally asked how to handle a certain match up rather than complaining about it and demanding for nerfs.
Welp. Why not just do it, because they can? We can't have a convo without downplaying, right?

You need to put kappa/lolzord/kekekekke at the end of your comment aswell. Seems like people on TYM just don't get it. Doge is not enough anymore.
:DOGE
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
I don't think this MU is in Johnny's favour, I think D'Vorah wins it 6-4 due to the fact that:

1) She can't be zoned, her run goes under Cage forceballs and trading with puddle is just super bad
2) Her hurtbox ruins most of Cage blockstrings
3) Her pokes can effectively keep Cage out
4) Her pressure is as good as Cage. She is not able to jail with everything but has an easier time opening people up due to her 50/50. In the corner is pretty much guaranteed death too, and she only needs one combo to carry the opponent there.

That said, I surely have to play this mu better and more often...I'm definetely not the most prepared player in this one.
 
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Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Are you saying that I think that A List is godmode?

Besides Takeda, I don't have more XP versus another character. I don't even have Johnny in the top tier, I just don't see how he loses to D'vorah. You literally couldn't be more off with that assumption, if i'm comprehending your post correctly.
No I think it was a jab at yolo roll.

Ultimately A-list struggles against D'v because our forceballs are absolutely irrelevant and they help control the space we need to play around f3.

With F34 not being an option as A-list and D'vs f1 string requiring no stamina she can just herp derp out pressure and throw in a few 50/50 safe cancels and you end up in the corner and dead.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
I've played a lot against @7horx d'vorah as a-list.

I'm pretty sure thorx can confirm this - I've always cried when playing against his SQ.

If the d'vorah knows footsies (hah, mkx and footsies) well then she'll just throw out d3's since they're unpunishable on whiff for a-list. The moment you go with a whiff punish - probably best option would be f3 - and it's at it's max range - you're gonna get hit with another d3. Then you're just vulnerable to pressure/punish since the frame advantage. The problem is like OP said it - there's basically no way of "getting in". I've asked several a-list players about how they deal with it and nobody was able to give me an actual answer.

The only option i've been told by @Asodimazze is to jump in.

The problem is you gotta either cross-up or be really close with that jump since after d'vorahs whiffed d3 the recovery is so low she can still go for a S1 as an AA.

There's just no need to talk about projectile game - it's nonexistant.

The only option is to get her in the corner and pump out the maximum amount of pressure and damage that is possible. It's still possible for a-list to break her armor.

Overall - better to pick SD / other character.
Yep, spot on. If the Dvorah d3 was whiff punishable, the MU would be fine. But like you said, it isn't. I tried playing SD for the Dvorah/GM sub MU, but its no where near as fun as A - List. Guess jumping is the best option then, even though it's still an unfavorable one.
first of d3 can be whiff punished
2nd of all even if it couldn't be whiff punished that doesn't mean he can't get in because someone with shit reactions can steal beat out anything she does after d3 on whiff
 

Meep8345

Noob
No I think it was a jab at yolo roll.

Ultimately A-list struggles against D'v because our forceballs are absolutely irrelevant and they help control the space we need to play around f3.

With F34 not being an option as A-list and D'vs f1 string requiring no stamina she can just herp derp out pressure and throw in a few 50/50 safe cancels and you end up in the corner and dead.
Dvorah doesn't truly have safe 50/50's imo. Her b1 cancel on hit is nearly impossible to hit-confirm consistently and if you are actually trying to hit-confirm it you will either throw the bug,cancel too late on hit and not combo, or you will only make b1 safe on block. But anyways it's def a really tough mu for Johnny. His best bet is to try to whiff punish her f11 or her d4/d3 on a read. Her d4 is nearly impossible to whiff punish so good luck at ever getting that. Or at d4 range just block her d4 and counter poke with f3. I think Stunt double is the best bet against her as Johnny but then you have to worry about managing your clones properly and chose to spend them in the neutral or try to get in with 1 or 2 clones.
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Premium Supporter
Dvorah doesn't truly have safe 50/50's imo. Her b1 cancel on hit is nearly impossible to hit-confirm consistently and if you are actually trying to hit-confirm it you will either throw the bug,cancel too late on hit and not combo, or you will only make b1 safe on block. But anyways it's def a really tough mu for Johnny. His best bet is to try to whiff punish her f11 or her d4/d3 on a read. Her d4 is nearly impossible to whiff punish so good luck at ever getting that. Or at d4 range just block her d4 and counter poke with f3. I think Stunt double is the best bet against her as Johnny but then you have to worry about managing your clones properly and chose to spend them in the neutral or try to get in with 1 or 2 clones.
I'm not a 100% sure but i think her d4 on block pushbacks enough making johnny's d3 whiff. Not sure.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
Dvorah doesn't truly have safe 50/50's imo. Her b1 cancel on hit is nearly impossible to hit-confirm consistently and if you are actually trying to hit-confirm it you will either throw the bug,cancel too late on hit and not combo, or you will only make b1 safe on block. But anyways it's def a really tough mu for Johnny. His best bet is to try to whiff punish her f11 or her d4/d3 on a read. Her d4 is nearly impossible to whiff punish so good luck at ever getting that. Or at d4 range just block her d4 and counter poke with f3. I think Stunt double is the best bet against her as Johnny but then you have to worry about managing your clones properly and chose to spend them in the neutral or try to get in with 1 or 2 clones.
Her B1 cancel isn't difficult. It's like a 6f link now lol. I agree with SD being better in the MU.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
Dvorah doesn't truly have safe 50/50's imo. Her b1 cancel on hit is nearly impossible to hit-confirm consistently and if you are actually trying to hit-confirm it you will either throw the bug,cancel too late on hit and not combo, or you will only make b1 safe on block.
This is wrong. b1 is easy enough to reliably hitconfirm with practice.
 

Meep8345

Noob
This is wrong. b1 is easy enough to reliably hitconfirm with practice.
Well I need to work on that then. I forgot about her d4's pushback I always thought it left them kinda close to you but I didn't actually test it. I think Dvorah is def Johnny's worst mu now. I can't think of anyway for him to really get started outside of out spacing the Dvorah player and then when he does get going he's kinda of playing a toned down version of a list in a way. Anyone else have any idea of what to do against her?
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Premium Supporter
Well I need to work on that then. I forgot about her d4's pushback I always thought it left them kinda close to you but I didn't actually test it. I think Dvorah is def Johnny's worst mu now. I can't think of anyway for him to really get started outside of out spacing the Dvorah player and then when he does get going he's kinda of playing a toned down version of a list in a way. Anyone else have any idea of what to do against her?
Don't take a hit, lol.

If possible - go with SD.

If you get her in the corner - KEEP HER THERE. It's very hard for her to get out of the corner, unless you try to overdo it with letting her throw you or get hit by ex ovacipator (whatever the fuck the name of this special is).

This is wrong. b1 is easy enough to reliably hitconfirm with practice.
Well I need to work on that then. I forgot about her d4's pushback I always thought it left them kinda close to you but I didn't actually test it. I think Dvorah is def Johnny's worst mu now. I can't think of anyway for him to really get started outside of out spacing the Dvorah player and then when he does get going he's kinda of playing a toned down version of a list in a way. Anyone else have any idea of what to do against her?
Yeah.
A d'vorah player that isn't using b1 is just stupid. Even withoout b1 you're basically made to keep taking the pressure on block. f112 -> cancel is pretty much the only safe cancel option and if one does mix it up with b1 you're fucked.
 

Meep8345

Noob
Don't take a hit, lol.

If possible - go with SD.

If you get her in the corner - KEEP HER THERE. It's very hard for her to get out of the corner, unless you try to overdo it with letting her throw you or get hit by ex ovacipator (whatever the fuck the name of this special is).





Yeah.
A d'vorah player that isn't using b1 is just stupid. Even withoout b1 you're basically made to keep taking the pressure on block. f112 -> cancel is pretty much the only safe cancel option and if one does mix it up with b1 you're fucked.
So basically she's Cyrax to Johnny lol. Her pressure is nasty but Johnny can get out if you read her staggers or if she goes for an option that doesn't jail. Honestly the only way I can see Johnny winning is if he's SD and gets her in the corner. You can't really throw her either since although you get a life lead it makes you have to get in again.
 

Wazminator

twitch.tv/Wazminator
This is wrong. b1 is easy enough to reliably hitconfirm with practice.
You can't see the B1 hit and cancel differently to what you would on block, you have to just make it safe when you do the 212 and just do 2/21 stagger or 212 wgc block
 

Saltea Mike

ROG Mike
Premium Supporter
It's not his worst match up, no way xD
Yeah there's no way it's the worst matchup.

Don't even fucking get me started on A-list vs Grandmaster. This one is a pain in the ass. Unless you're the goddamn @Killer Xinok! This guy has no problems with this matchup... or Lord Brady is just not good enough.

You can't see the B1 hit and cancel differently to what you would on block, you have to just make it safe when you do the 212 and just do 2/21 stagger or 212 wgc block
"It's there, but it's hard to do" is not a viable argument. Cancels are hard overall. Guessing 50/50s is hard. Game is hard.
 

llabslb

R1D1_998
Yeah there's no way it's the worst matchup.

Don't even fucking get me started on A-list vs Grandmaster. This one is a pain in the ass. Unless you're the goddamn @Killer Xinok! This guy has no problems with this matchup... or Lord Brady is just not good enough.



"It's there, but it's hard to do" is not a viable argument. Cancels are hard overall. Guessing 50/50s is hard. Game is hard.
I'm very comfortable in the A-list v GM match up. Maybe because I previously mained GM but I don't think it's that bad for A-list. Imo his worst match up is ronin.

I'm also confused with this idea of a 50/50 not being reliable or considered a 50/50 because it's 'difficult'. Execution should never be an excuse.
 

Meep8345

Noob
I'm very comfortable in the A-list v GM match up. Maybe because I previously mained GM but I don't think it's that bad for A-list. Imo his worst match up is ronin.

I'm also confused with this idea of a 50/50 not being reliable or considered a 50/50 because it's 'difficult'. Execution should never be an excuse.
I didn't say it wasn't considered a 50/50 just said it's almost impossible to make 100% safe and hit-confirm it. Which I was wrong I just need to pratice it more. But even if a Dvorah player can't hit-confirm it it's still an option the Johnny has to deal with.