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"You're Fired!" -- Joker General Discussion Thread

B W1zZ

Warrior
If your opponent uses wakeups and tech rolls on your teeth setups all the time you gotta stop trying to reset and start baiting that shit.
 

laudanum09

Darling
B W1zZ

Is there a reason you use so many unsafe teeth cancels? I'm not trying to blow u up but am I missing something that other strings have that 212 lack for teeth cancels on block?
 

B W1zZ

Warrior
B W1zZ

Is there a reason you use so many unsafe teeth cancels? I'm not trying to blow u up but am I missing something that other strings have that 212 lack for teeth cancels on block?

Idk give me an example. I've basically just been trying to expiriment with different cancels and setups. If I catch someone in a teeth setup I'm getting 54% meterless damage possibly. I presume you've watched me on the teamhazmat stream...

But really I want to know exactly what setups you are referring to. I had some new ones I was expirimenting with a bit last time.
 

laudanum09

Darling
Idk give me an example. I've basically just been trying to expiriment with different cancels and setups. If I catch someone in a teeth setup I'm getting 54% meterless damage possibly. I presume you've watched me on the teamhazmat stream...
I tend to try and catch any Joker play I can, so far you, Ren and Cat are the only ones representing.

Your corner game is great but I see you doing things like cancelling 32 into teeth on block when it's interruptable/punishable. 212 is safe on block and you can set up the pushblock trap. so I was wondering if there was something I was missing. IMO if you're using 32 you should hit confirm the block and do 323 since it's +1 on block and leaves you point blank.
 
This teeth loop is hard to use in a real match( my inputs are teeth, j3 (must hit before explosion), teeth, j3, teeth, 3xxFlower, 3xxFlower = 55. Good set up will be any hard knockdown, but issue is that op should staying on teeth and plus eat first j3! I think that the best set up for loop is when u using interact in a middle of stages (Atlantis, Wayn's mansion) after this op falling down near u with hard knockdown, so u can throw teeth and cross up with j3!
 

laudanum09

Darling
I'm thinking teeth + the option select MB Launcher (2 meters) against wakeups might be useful? maybe we don't have time to hit meaty enough with whatever grounded attack to cancel into F3 MB launcher. I'm going to try it out tonight.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
Had a short ggs earlier today vs aquaman main. I lost 5-1, but I'm learning a little more each time. As a Joker only main I can't feel bad when I lose, I can only focus on sharpening my game. I dropped too many bnb's, could be due to lag or just not paying attention. I didn't even try to go for the reset b/c it was online. anyone know a good wake up strategy for aqua's rush down game.
 

laudanum09

Darling
flower is actually a good wakeup against non jump in attacks. has some invincibility but it can trade with deep meaties, but it will get you out of knockdown pressure and is safe. I've had it trade or beat meaty jump ins and even crossups in the corner on occasion. jokers backdash is ass, use sparingly, also cat has a number of joker vs aquaman videos so check those out.
 

KonDcnT

KonDcnT
Just pissed a guy off online today because I kept selecting joker. He beat me 3-0 and still was butt hurt. Sorry I am just trying to get better and I am a Joker only main. Didn't realize that was a breech of conduct
 

laudanum09

Darling
dumb question but has it been common knowledge that all of joker's strings with knives actually cause chip on block? I seriously noticed this for the first time last night.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
dumb question but has it been common knowledge that all of joker's strings with knives actually cause chip on block? I seriously noticed this for the first time last night.
all strings to chip damage in this game, its just not noticeable enough to actually state that this game has actual chip damage from rushdown.


Just found a neat little thing, was experimenting after Metzos told me that there's no way joker can't link MB RLG after a J3, so I came up with this

We all know that you can combo from J3 as joker is descending with f232 flower for 26% but can't get anything other than a sweep from max distance and nothing at all from an instant J3

I saw a few mins ago that you can do D2 MB RLG and it will launch from any range as long as joker is not still in the rising jump animation

from ranges where you can combo from J3 you can use the bar to do D2 MB RLG B3 J2 3 flower for 35%

from almost max range J3 you can do D2 MB RLG dash 32 flower for 34%

from absolute max range you can do a sweep depending on the height at which you hit them.

overall, i hate going out of my way and trying every possible scenario just to have this character remain the worst in the game.
 

laudanum09

Darling
I posted about j3, d2 twice several times and no one cared lol.

It worked before the latest patch as well, but I could only get it off of a very deep crossup j3. Now it works in different situations.

I agree with you Qwark, unless a completely inescapable teeth setup or something dumb like that is found he will be stuck where he is. All of the latest and greatest tech is just a way of exploiting stuff we already knew he could do like tightening escape options from teeth to get it close to 50/50 and you and steve's crossunder/crossup setup. He needs buffs.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
I've been watching some other Jokers play recently and kind of diving in with a whole new mentality after a month-long hiatus and there have been a few things that I've noticed people are not doing. Maybe this stuff is common knowledge and there's a good reason why I don't see it used, but I'll throw it out anyway:

1) D3 is godlike. Now I'm pretty sure we know it and I see other people use it, but I don't see people follow it up as well as they could. D3 is of course a hard knockdown, meaning no invincible wakeups. A well spaced D3 also allows for a retardedly ambiguous ji2 which I never see anyone use. It stuffs all wakeups due to the hard knockdown on D3 and it's so ambiguous that I always do ji2>3>2 then wait to cancel because I rarely know which side it will hit on.
Now I know, D3 is unsafe on block, so despite the range it can be bad if they see it coming. Well... yes, but it is a great midrange tool, and when mixed in properly, is godlike. This leads me to our other godlike midrange option...

2) D2. I don't see people use this enough as a spacing tool, and more importantly, cancel it into teeth or flower to make it safe. D2 has one of the best horizontal ranges of any AA move (Yeah fuck you Aquaman) and more disjointed horizontal range than most normals in this game. Now admittedly, it is horribly unsafe on block, BUT it cancels ridiculously fast, to the point where I think it might actually be safe even when canceled into teeth (Would need accurate frame data to know for sure though).
Perhaps the most important reason to put D2 into your midrange game though is because of the benefits it gives. Assuming you canceled into teeth, it gives you the following:
-If it anti-airs, you get a free teeth combo.
-If it hits them on the ground, you have a free dash/jump in and have teeth in place for pressure.
-On block it forces them to do something because they are now standing on teeth, allowing you to react to what they do.
Oh and it also allows us to stop relying so much on jump attacks to get in, which makes us easy to read and AA.

3) Use teeth to control space, using it to shut down other people's options. This one came to mind when watching SteveOSupremo play Grrrrr the other day (Sorry to put you on blast here. You have a good Joker and I enjoyed watching that set.). By keeping teeth in front of him constantly then just waited for Bane to do something, you shut out all of his mid/full screen approach options, most notably the charge. Now I know it has armor, but the thing is that if you block and have teeth in front of you, the teeth hit after the armor disappears. Another thing to note is that Bane's charge is not fast enough for him to use it to punish you for pulling teeth unless you throw teeth after he starts the charge.

That's just one example, but this basic premise applies to many matchups. By keeping teeth on the ground, we do limit our opponent's options.
-Close teeth prevent Scorpion from doing a MB teleport (He walks forward and hits the teeth, trading if the TP hit and being full combo punished if you blocked.).
-Close teeth prevent characters with front/back teleports from being able to teleport in front of you, making it easier to read and punish them.
-Any character who tries to approach you has to go around them, making them more predictable, and when combined with D2 cancels, can make it very hard to get in on Joker at mid range.
-Close teeth punish BA if he divekicks (although I do realize that's not the biggest problem in that MU and that trying to pull teeth will probably result in lightning, jazz hands or black Magic, but I'm just sayin'.).
-Slides and charge moves (Except Shazam's Psycho Crusher) in general all get punished hard, regardless of how positive they may be on block (Looking at you KF!) if you block them with teeth in front of you. The same applies to a lot of jump in attacks.

You get the point.


TL DR version: Joker may not be a good character, but to be honest I don't feel we're playing him quite right either. Most of us seem to be playing a super aggressive close range game, and while Joker is great at that when he has pressure on his opponent, I feel we're all neglecting our mid range game, which is where we shine when in neutral positions.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
I've been watching some other Jokers play recently and kind of diving in with a whole new mentality after a month-long hiatus and there have been a few things that I've noticed people are not doing. Maybe this stuff is common knowledge and there's a good reason why I don't see it used, but I'll throw it out anyway:

1) D3 is godlike. Now I'm pretty sure we know it and I see other people use it, but I don't see people follow it up as well as they could. D3 is of course a hard knockdown, meaning no invincible wakeups. A well spaced D3 also allows for a retardedly ambiguous ji2 which I never see anyone use. It stuffs all wakeups due to the hard knockdown on D3 and it's so ambiguous that I always do ji2>3>2 then wait to cancel because I rarely know which side it will hit on.
Now I know, D3 is unsafe on block, so despite the range it can be bad if they see it coming. Well... yes, but it is a great midrange tool, and when mixed in properly, is godlike. This leads me to our other godlike midrange option...

2) D2. I don't see people use this enough as a spacing tool, and more importantly, cancel it into teeth or flower to make it safe. D2 has one of the best horizontal ranges of any AA move (Yeah fuck you Aquaman) and more disjointed horizontal range than most normals in this game. Now admittedly, it is horribly unsafe on block, BUT it cancels ridiculously fast, to the point where I think it might actually be safe even when canceled into teeth (Would need accurate frame data to know for sure though).
Perhaps the most important reason to put D2 into your midrange game though is because of the benefits it gives. Assuming you canceled into teeth, it gives you the following:
-If it anti-airs, you get a free teeth combo.
-If it hits them on the ground, you have a free dash/jump in and have teeth in place for pressure.
-On block it forces them to do something because they are now standing on teeth, allowing you to react to what they do.
Oh and it also allows us to stop relying so much on jump attacks to get in, which makes us easy to read and AA.

3) Use teeth to control space, using it to shut down other people's options. This one came to mind when watching SteveOSupremo play Grrrrr the other day (Sorry to put you on blast here. You have a good Joker and I enjoyed watching that set.). By keeping teeth in front of him constantly then just waited for Bane to do something, you shut out all of his mid/full screen approach options, most notably the charge. Now I know it has armor, but the thing is that if you block and have teeth in front of you, the teeth hit after the armor disappears. Another thing to note is that Bane's charge is not fast enough for him to use it to punish you for pulling teeth unless you throw teeth after he starts the charge.

That's just one example, but this basic premise applies to many matchups. By keeping teeth on the ground, we do limit our opponent's options.
-Close teeth prevent Scorpion from doing a MB teleport (He walks forward and hits the teeth, trading if the TP hit and being full combo punished if you blocked.).
-Close teeth prevent characters with front/back teleports from being able to teleport in front of you, making it easier to read and punish them.
-Any character who tries to approach you has to go around them, making them more predictable, and when combined with D2 cancels, can make it very hard to get in on Joker at mid range.
-Close teeth punish BA if he divekicks (although I do realize that's not the biggest problem in that MU and that trying to pull teeth will probably result in lightning, jazz hands or black Magic, but I'm just sayin'.).
-Slides and charge moves (Except Shazam's Psycho Crusher) in general all get punished hard, regardless of how positive they may be on block (Looking at you KF!) if you block them with teeth in front of you. The same applies to a lot of jump in attacks.

You get the point.


TL DR version: Joker may not be a good character, but to be honest I don't feel we're playing him quite right either. Most of us seem to be playing a super aggressive close range game, and while Joker is great at that when he has pressure on his opponent, I feel we're all neglecting our mid range game, which is where we shine when in neutral positions.
Just some small stuff. A hard knockdown does not prevent invincible wake ups, it just stops the tech roll and makes the wake up window slightly more tight.

Outside of that, you are on the ball with most of it. My Joker is based entirely on the mid range footsie game, using d3, d2 and crowbar(despite it supposed uselessness, you get people off their d2's and force them walk backwards which opens up your jump in and gets them closer to the corner). Land one d3 and you can force a mix up (empty jump if I read a wake up). Land a crowbar they get loads closer to the corner and give up a maxed range j3 which they cannot aa (some wake ups can't touch a max range j3 either).
In regards to using d2 as a spacing tool, while its decent, d3 is the superior option imo. d2 is only better from within sweep range cuz then you can't guess jump it. It is punishable though, so you need to do d2 acid flower to stay safe. Its decent but you need to know the spaces to use it.
b1 acid flower/b1,3 is another good midrange tool. b1,3 is better for match ups where they don't have a low starter or a 50/50. Its only -4 and the parry threat can delay pressure which lets you do stuff like b1,3 d1 or even b1,3 b1,3 in some cases. For the black adam match up this move is key cuz of the hard knockdown, letting you chase him down easier. For characters with good 50/50's, b1 flower is the way to go. The range on b1 is nuts (if you ignore gl b1 and supes f2)

And yeah your right with the teeth. I've been slowly incorporating more neutral game teeth. Been using more as an offensive tool though. Helps break people who like to sit there waiting for the anti air.
 

Jarc

Uh huh, we get it, yup, yeah, you too.
Fromundaman Gilbagz Aight I honestly haven't played Injustice in like 3 weeks, but when I was, d2 xx far teeth seemed promising in against characters without a fast, forward moving ranged move. Jump ins are not fast enough to punish & can be countered by throwing close teeth. The set-up shit needs more testing, but it's hard to react to & like you said Fro, it forces a reaction.
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Oh shit, you CAN do invincible wakeups after hard knockdown? Well thanks for telling me that! I'm certain I would have gotten blown up by that at some point XD
 

StevoSuprem0

I'm gonna make this skill gap... disappear.
Yup, certainly can still do invincible wakeups. As for my match with Grr, yeah I sucked on stream, and in general at that tournament. In my defense, I'm in the middle of spending all of my time writing a thesis, so my mind is elsewhere when I get a chance to play right now. In the Bane matchup, whenever you see him charging you, you should be throwing out teeth and then blocking, getting him in a setup. I failed to do so the entire time... ugh... I beat Grr a few times in casuals, he's an awesome guy, but yeah, definitely let the community down with that performance :( . Hadn't really played at all in the month of August and it definitely showed.
I will say that you can't simply spam teeth and hope to be successful, because alot of Bane's strings advance him pretty far across the screen and he will be outside of the hit box by the time they are through, and many other characters are the same way. Need to focus on good placements because good players will blow you up for trying to place them at the wrong time. One mistake Grr was making was that Bane's rising wakeup would have gotten him out of most of my setups when I was actually able to land them (and drop them every time). I need to work on not jumping around so much because that kills me. Hopefully we get some ground mixups so that ji2 isn't our main combo starter...
The main problem that I have with the d3, d2, crowbar game right now is that those moves are quite unsafe. Lantern can full combo punish all of them from max sweep range, Batman can chuck bats and do the same, I believe Supes can snag a f23 (could e wrong), and most of the cast can at least catch you with a special. It's nice that there is some sweep range mixup, but I don't think the risk/reward is there when you might get 10% damage on them, but they might dish out 30-40% on you if they guess right. D2 less so, because you can cancel into things and make it safe, but the other two need some frame work badly.
B1,flower/b1,3 is pretty much my shit. I love that string haha. B1 in general is huge against GL and Supes, like was said. These come in huge in the neutral game, but what I think I and everyone else needs to be doing more on block is 212 teeth stuff. It basically makes you completely safe, is an alternative for 212 when you use it as a starter and it gets blocked where you don't wanna waste a MB RLG to get shitty 18f of advantage (seriously, alot of characters can d2 that), and lets you block for a moment, see what they do, and react. Worst case scenario you're at the neutral game and you hit them with a quick gunshot, or fake it, dash cancel, and go for it again or catch them with a b1. I think this is extremely important to having a successful Joker, and I hope to have some time to prove it come the end of this month!!!:joker:
 

Fromundaman

I write too much.
Oh yeah, B13 and B1 cancels are amazing too, but I didn't feel the need to mention them since it seems most good Jokers I see are already using that.

D2 and D3 are definitely punishable, but if you keep it unpredictable it's very unlikely that they actually will be punished.

I completely agree with you though on the 212 cancels though, and it's something I need to work into my game more. I need to stop using MB RLG on block; I get blown up every time someone knows they can by that.

I only see one use for BF3 though and that's that corner stuff I posted in the other thread (Not sure how clear I was though, but sadly I have no way of recording at the moment).