Injustice Kryptonite Council Podcast Episode 3 Feat: Tom Brady, Reo, Pig of the Hut, M2dave

[16 Bit]

You can't have it both ways. You can't have "m2dave wins nothing, no one needs to respect his opinion and he's just that crazy guy who is bitter about deathstroke nerfs" AND "you're a respected leader in the community and you killed scorpion, apologize playing that race."

Let's be real, the results of that poll were from:
- Watching REO clean up on the charity stream
- Watching primarily Tom and REO (because he was obviously considered an authority on the character) advocate a nerf to his MB TP punch or a ban pending said change.
- Reading AFG's post which featured more than the 4 you're trying to shame-blast advocating scorpion get banned / nerfed
- Confirmation bias. A lot of people felt Scorpion was broken. Seeing players considered among the elite of this games' players had the same believes tapped into feelings that were already there for a lot of the community

I agree. The rest need to be put on blast too.

 

[cfw]

Before SCV died

Soulcalibur V isn't dead lmao. Where y'all get this shit from?

 

[RWDY Nori]

GGA 16 Bit I think everybody has covered their opinion. There are several ways to fix his teleport that NRS can do, but leaving it as is, not the solution. You're a smart guy, you can clearly see how the game was meant to be played and how not meant to be played.

I have 10000% respect for GGA Slips and I'm 100% confident if Scorpion is allowed at Evo, he will straight up win cause of his intelligence alone. W/that being said, I cannot get behind a char w/a teleport that strong. Again, make the teleport land in front like Batgirl or have it not hit. The way it is now is very fucked

And I mained Bane from day 1 w/secondary backup, so I'm used to having a char who struggles. Scorpion is NOT a char who struggles and still destroys quite a few chars, easily. What you don't seem to get is Scorpion is so new, that over time, they will learn the matchups inside and out and he will proceed to fuck the cast

Every other top tier char in every other game (minus ST Akuma) was over powered but played within the system of the game. I don't understand how you don't agree w/this but your opinion is your opinion so that's fine

 

[Zoidberg747]

Soulcalibur V isn't dead lmao. Where y'all get this shit from?

Sorry, I was just thinking of my scene lol

But thanks for adding to my argument, as Viola is legal and SCV is still alive.

 

[16 Bit]

When you come with "the rules of the game", "how the game was intended to be played", MU numbers, "it's just not fun", "the majority agree", "this character will dominate the top 8" and "this character is too easy to use" and so forth you need to be specific. We were talking about BANNING A CHARACTER. I am not sure why only a few on TYM seemed to understand the gravity of that situation. If we're going to ban a character we need more than how Foxy feels the game should be played or how many top 8 placings he has.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Capcom games generally stick to this philosophy and the devs actively resist patching and those are the most popular and hype games at any tournament, so I'm not sure why you're criticizing 16bit for not being down with reactionary nerfs before characters are fully understood.

The patch for SF4 has been in the works for ages and has been super transparent with an open dialogue with top players and careful analysis of tournaments and data from Japan's arcade scene. NRS patches in a month because people threw a fit on an internet forum before a tournament had even occurred.

Sentinel from MvC3 says hi. He, like DS, had ZERO reason to be patched right away.

This is a new generation of gamers where they want everything patched, but as I've said several times, there is a major difference between top tier/over powered vs game breaking/broken. Scorpion falls in the 2nd category w/how he is now. Fix his teleport by either having it like Batgirl, or having it not hit the opponent on the other side. Spending the match fucking ducking all day is not how a game should be played I'm sorry

 

[Garr123]

GGA 16 Bit You're a smart guy, you can clearly see how the game was meant to be played and how not meant to be played.

How was it meant to be played? I keep hearing this thing repeated and the answer is nothing more than an opinion and some nonsense people are making up because they don't like the teleport.

 

[RWDY Nori]

Soulcalibur V isn't dead lmao. Where y'all get this shit from?

In most of the country it's dead. If it wasn't, it would be at Evo where it rightfully belongs. Look at major tournaments and look at the attendance for SC5. It's pretty dead. If your local scene is keeping it alive, wonderful. Most of the country isn't playing it anymore and that's a shame cause it was my favorite out of the entire series

 

[Garr123]

Sentinel from MvC3 says hi. He, like DS, had ZERO reason to be patched right away.

That happened one time and if I recall a lot of pros were confused by it and I recall the consensus being that it was dumb and too soon, then Capcom never did a reactionary patch again and waited til EVO was over to tweak Phoenix so they could see how she actually preformed.

He wasn't broken jesus christ

 

[cfw]

In most of the country it's dead. If it wasn't, it would be at Evo where it rightfully belongs. Look at major tournaments and look at the attendance for SC5. It's pretty dead. If your local scene is keeping it alive, wonderful. Most of the country isn't playing it anymore and that's a shame cause it was my favorite out of the entire series

Well, it's a side tournament at EVO but I guess it's dead then...

 

[16 Bit]

GGA 16 Bit I think everybody has covered their opinion. There are several ways to fix his teleport that NRS can do, but leaving it as is, not the solution. You're a smart guy, you can clearly see how the game was meant to be played and how not meant to be played.

I have 10000% respect for GGA Slips and I'm 100% confident if Scorpion is allowed at Evo, he will straight up win cause of his intelligence alone. W/that being said, I cannot get behind a char w/a teleport that strong. Again, make the teleport land in front like Batgirl or have it not hit. The way it is now is very fucked

And I mained Bane from day 1 w/secondary backup, so I'm used to having a char who struggles. Scorpion is NOT a char who struggles and still destroys quite a few chars, easily. What you don't seem to get is Scorpion is so new, that over time, they will learn the matchups inside and out and he will proceed to fuck the cast

Every other top tier char in every other game (minus ST Akuma) was over powered but played within the system of the game. I don't understand how you don't agree w/this but your opinion is your opinion so that's fine

I do not have arbitrary rules in my head for "how the game should be played". His teleport DOES play within the system of the game. It being a hella fast crossup was the design intent. I don't see how you guys can't see it. Do you guys seriously think Paulo didn't know how it would work and how Scorpion would play? Do you think it's a coincidence he has super slow walk speed and poor footsies? You can have an opinion on if his design is too annoying or too powerful but the idea that it breaks the rules of the game because you don't like dealing with it isn't compelling. It's a meaningless argument.

I also don't care for this argument that Scorpion players will level up. Who's to say we won't level up in the MU? You say you respect Slips but you don't listen to him or his training partners. The opposite has been happening so far. Before the nerf everyone was getting better at the MU.

 

[annoyedw/ppl]

Ok. So that's it then? We're going to start banning based on what the majority thinks is fun or their ideals for how the game "should" be played. We're now building our own game? If that's the way it is so be it. Are we doing polls for each individual character? You tell us how that works.

Don't just say "it's common sense". We need standards and guidelines.

And none of you can complain when they come for your character next.

For dlc characters they should be banned to start off. pretty simple concept. you're mad i said you are a joke character, i understand your aggression at me. This should not be the case with original cast characters, again simple concept. all you have to do is give dlc characters some time to be introduced into the game.

its really easy to tell the difference between a character being really good, and a character making people not want to play the game.

superman is really damn good, people were not quitting over him (im sure there were a few, but thats always the case)

scorpion was really good, and people were quitting over him in large numbers.

There is a business concept here that people need to realise takes precedent over tournament play. low shots was nerfed not because it needed to be, but because the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the game and only play online cant handle its recovery. same shit with scorpion, you cant expect to keep selling dlc when everyone stops playing your game cuz scorpion was just derping online like it was nothing. the nerfs had to happen, its not about fairness, its about what needs to be done to save a game from dying.

you can try to bring up the sky is falling defense of once it starts where do we stop, but things naturally fix themselves if we just take a few common sense approaches to introducing dlc characters

 

[RWDY Nori]

How was it meant to be played? I keep hearing this thing repeated and the answer is nothing more than an opinion and some nonsense people are making up because they don't like the teleport.

A fast teleport crossing you up was clearly not meant to be in this game. Obviously there is nothing in the instruction manual saying this, but let's be smart and know that 2+2 is not 5. Somethings don't have to be spelled out. Raiden in MK9 had one of the best teleports in any game and nobody wanted to ban him. Why? It didn't hit you and you didn't have to duck the entire match to beat him.

Again, people can beat Scorpion and I think you are missing the point. His tier placement or how good he is truly don't matter, it's his that is current moveset does not fit IGAU. Who else can you compare him to in this game? Superman/BA/WW/Pick anybody you feel is top tier, all have a major weakness. What is scorpions?

 

[MortySeinfeld]

Capcom games generally stick to this philosophy and the devs actively resist patching and those are the most popular and hype games at any tournament.

Capcom is also known to repackage their patches and convince people to buy an updated version of the same game several times over and over again.

 

[Garr123]

A fast teleport crossing you up was clearly not meant to be in this game. Obviously there is nothing in the instruction manual saying this, but let's be smart and know that 2+2 is not 5. Somethings don't have to be spelled out. Raiden in MK9 had one of the best teleports in any game and nobody wanted to ban him. Why? It didn't hit you and you didn't have to duck the entire match to beat him.

Again, people can beat Scorpion and I think you are missing the point. His tier placement or how good he is truly don't matter, it's his that is current moveset does not fit IGAU. Who else can you compare him to in this game? Superman/BA/WW/Pick anybody you feel is top tier, all have a major weakness. What is scorpions?

This is the most opinion based shit. Did we even watch the same CEO?

 

[annoyedw/ppl]

Capcom games generally stick to this philosophy and the devs actively resist patching and those are the most popular and hype games at any tournament, so I'm not sure why you're criticizing 16bit for not being down with reactionary nerfs before characters are fully understood.

The patch for SF4 has been in the works for ages and has been super transparent with an open dialogue with top players and careful analysis of tournaments and data from Japan's arcade scene. NRS patches in a month because people threw a fit on an internet forum before a tournament had even occurred.

SF4 didnt bring new characters every month. they released full copies of the game with all characters included from the start. so they didnt need to fix each character over and over cuz they rushed them out to meet a dlc deadline.

im not advocating constant patching. im saying sometimes you need to be smarter about not accepting things with open arms right away. i think capcom's system of updates are certainly better for the game as a whole, but again, they dont add new characters constantly, like once a year they did from vanilla through AE?

 

[16 Bit]

A fast teleport crossing you up was clearly not meant to be in this game. Obviously there is nothing in the instruction manual saying this, but let's be smart and know that 2+2 is not 5. Somethings don't have to be spelled out. Raiden in MK9 had one of the best teleports in any game and nobody wanted to ban him. Why? It didn't hit you and you didn't have to duck the entire match to beat him.

Again, people can beat Scorpion and I think you are missing the point. His tier placement or how good he is truly don't matter, it's his that is current moveset does not fit IGAU. Who else can you compare him to in this game? Superman/BA/WW/Pick anybody you feel is top tier, all have a major weakness. What is scorpions?

This makes no sense. A fast cross up teleport was meant to be in the game. You just say it wasn't meant to be based on nothing. You are throwing out phrases like "does not fit" as if we're supposed to accept it. It's all empty talk. We're not banning a character because of "common sense" or your gut feeling of how the game should be. I thought banning was more serious than that.

You don't have to duck the entire match. You blow up teleport enough and they stop teleporting. Then you can play your game.

 

[RWDY Nori]

That happened one time and if I recall a lot of pros were confused by it and I recall the consensus being that it was dumb and too soon, then Capcom never did a reactionary patch again and waited til EVO was over to tweak Phoenix so they could see how she actually preformed.

He wasn't broken jesus christ

I didn't say I thought he was broken, I said he was knee jerked patched and he shouldn't have. And Justin Wong was the one who pushed for the nerf in the first place, so I don't understand the "most pros were confused".

GGA 16 Bit I can't have respect for Slips and disagree w/his training partner? I have respect for my wife so I can't disagree w/her either? Come on bro. And no, the designers of the game clearly did not see the problem before, and clearly his teleport wasn't meant to be mid. I love NRS, I defend them to death, feel free to read my posts in april and may. I still love them to death, my ONLY complaint is scorpion, that's it.

And we both know this game has poor footsies anyway, so that's not a great argument saying he has poor footsies. You don't have to "care" for the argument that Scorpion players will level up, but it is a straight up fact that they will. Unless you can block most of the 50/50s, you are kind of fucked. Of course we will level up over time, just keep in mind he is already a problem now and will continue to be unless he's actually fixed. I bought Scorpion, I want to see him used in tournaments just not his current version

 

[LEGEND]

When you come with "the rules of the game", "how the game was intended to be played", MU numbers, "it's just not fun", "the majority agree", "this character will dominate the top 8" and "this character is too easy to use" and so forth you need to be specific. We were talking about BANNING A CHARACTER. I am not sure why only a few on TYM seemed to understand the gravity of that situation. If we're going to ban a character we need more than how Foxy feels the game should be played or how many top 8 placings he has.

we WERE talking about TEMPORARILY banning a DLC character that was only THREE WEEKS OLD for the BIGGEST TOURNAMENT THIS GAME WILL EVER SEE

words capitalized so you don't keep glossing over shit
-
Pre Patch Scorpion was a very good character that happened to mop up roughly half the cast or more (arguably), and we are expected to A) learn the MU in this short time, when he is also so much more powerful online so that form of training is not as effect (side point) and B) accept that he may possible only be a "good" character and not "broken" within such a short time of him being playable and him having not nearly as much testing done to him as the main roster had, There was simply not enough time or concrete information (which happens to be the strongest/most popular argument for both sides of this)

 

[Garr123]

Capcom is also known to repackage their patches and convince people to buy an updated version of the same game several times over and over again.

LET'S GET HYPE. GET HYPE FOR REPACKAGING.

i don't see your point other than some frivolous ignoratio elenchi

 

[16 Bit]

For dlc characters they should be banned to start off. pretty simple concept. you're mad i said you are a joke character, i understand your aggression at me. This should not be the case with original cast characters, again simple concept. all you have to do is give dlc characters some time to be introduced into the game.

its really easy to tell the difference between a character being really good, and a character making people not want to play the game.

superman is really damn good, people were not quitting over him (im sure there were a few, but thats always the case)

scorpion was really good, and people were quitting over him in large numbers.

There is a business concept here that people need to realise takes precedent over tournament play. low shots was nerfed not because it needed to be, but because the hundreds of thousands of people who bought the game and only play online cant handle its recovery. same shit with scorpion, you cant expect to keep selling dlc when everyone stops playing your game cuz scorpion was just derping online like it was nothing. the nerfs had to happen, its not about fairness, its about what needs to be done to save a game from dying.

you can try to bring up the sky is falling defense of once it starts where do we stop, but things naturally fix themselves if we just take a few common sense approaches to introducing dlc characters

It's not easy to tell. How is it easy? A poll? Do we do official pools for each character? You cannot just say "it's common sense", "it just feels like he doesn't belong" and expect me to go along with it.

I personally have more fun fighting Scorpion than Black Adam. I find Hawkgirl more annoying too. No one else can fly. It breaks the rules of the game. I want her banned. It just feels like I'm not playing the way it's meant to be played. You find this ridiculous because there isn't a mob saying it.

 

[16 Bit]

we WERE talking about TEMPORARILY banning a DLC character that was only THREE WEEKS OLD for the BIGGEST TOURNAMENT THIS GAME WILL EVER SEE

words capitalized so you don't keep glossing over shit
-
Pre Patch Scorpion was a very good character that happened to mop up roughly half the cast or more (arguably), and we are expected to A) learn the MU in this short time, when he is also so much more powerful online so that form of training is not as effect (side point) and B) accept that he may possible only be a "good" character and not "broken" within such a short time of him being playable and him having not nearly as much testing done to him as the main roster had, There was simply not enough time or concrete information (which happens to be the strongest/most popular argument for both sides of this)

I find this disingenuous because there was no uproar over other DLC characters.


Let's be serious here. The argument is not "this character is a giant mystery" it's he breaks the rules of the game, he mops up half the cast, ect.

 

[RWDY Nori]

This makes no sense. A fast cross up teleport was meant to be in the game. You just say it wasn't meant to be based on nothing. You are throwing out phrases like "does not fit" as if we're supposed to accept it. It's all empty talk. We're not banning a character because of "common sense" or your gut feeling of how the game should be. I thought banning was more serious than that.

You don't have to duck the entire match. You blow up teleport enough and they stop teleporting. Then you can play your game.

I'm using examples on how he doesn't fit and you just don't agree w/it. It's not empty talk. Empty talk is talking out of my ass, which I'm not doing if I'm providing examples. There have been many reasons provided why he's being potentially banned, obviously it's not because of my own gut feeling, the last 2 sentences were just silly.

And saying blowing up the teleport enough and then play your game is like saying block enough lows/mids/highs and break enough throws and you'll win. Yes, that is the plan but it's insanely in scorpion's favor to not have that happen.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
..... Oh wait you weren't kidding, if you can " react" to slide,then you play to many online Ranked Frosts that slide every five seconds.

nobody in ranked uses killer frost lol

 

[Garr123]

I find this disingenuous because there was no uproar over other DLC characters.

Which is amusing considering I'd rather play a good prepatch scorp than a middling batgirl who only knows her basic vortex and how to do wakeup attacks. I have like a 70+ percent winrate with her and I literally know only one combo and her 111 mixup, but somehow she's way more legit than Scorpion because less people played her.