Help me understand frame data...

[kappie.wp]

Ok, so I have a basic understanding of frame data and how it should work ... but there's some things that I just don't get.

Taking these two strings as an example:

Aquaman's marine marvel which is +2 on block and f1 has a startup of 7f which we all know as Aquaman's corner block infinite.

and

Killer Frost's severe blizzard which is also +2 on block and 1 has a startup of 6f. But this is not a corner block infinite?

Aquaman's string means you need a move with a startup of 4f (or 5f if you want to trade) which doesn't exist right?

And KF's string means you need a move with a startup of 3f (or 4f if you want to trade) which also doesn't exist right?

The only difference I see is the recovering frames: 15f vs 29f ... so how does it work?

---
Upon further investigation:

This might belong in the KF forum but if you trait cancel (correct term?) or end the string with 4 rather (if incorrect term) ie 111~4 this speeds up recovery and seems to be a corner block infinite (please note the "seems to be" as it's a little difficult to confirm this by myself)

Would someone be able to confirm this?

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

A couple of things to take into consideration:

1.In game frame data is off
2.frame data doesnt account for pushback/range
Or if the move hits overhead/high/mid/low

 

[kappie.wp]

A couple of things to take into consideration:

1.In game frame data is off
2.frame data doesnt account for pushback/range
Or if the move hits overhead/high/mid/low

I get that, hence the further investigation and the need for it to be in the corner. The trait makes up for the "push back" and it's a mid string as well.

 

[Jimmypotato]

lots of the + frames in this game don't nessisarily mean you get a free hit. It means they just can't do a move for that many frames because they are in block stun. but they can still block, so you get "free pressure" or at least garanteed your next move if it is faster then the +frames you are at, or like you said at least faster then there fastest move.

I think batman has a 5 frame jab

dunno if that makes sense lol

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

In the corner push back pushes yourself back instead of the target, creating space either way.

Anyways i dont play either of those chars im just tryin to throw in a couple points incase you missed em.

 

[Sao87]

The fastest move in this game is 6 frames. This will be our base line (2 acceptions. Batmans robats and supermans ultra)

Frames are counted in 60th's of a second. So a common d1 which is 6f start up = 6/60ths of a second.

There are Start up frames: The amount of time a move takes to become active (active meaning deal damage)
Recovery Frames: The amount of time a move takes to end
Hit Frames: The amount of frames granted on hit
Block Frames: The amount of frames granted or lost when blocked.

If something is +1 on block. You're at advantage. Knowing that something is 6f start up means that if you are +1 and you press d1 right after (6 frame start up) and your opponent challenges you with is 6 frame d1. You will win! Assuming you both timed everything perfectly.

The frames that aren't accounted for (and not neccessary) are the 2nd hit of 3 part strings. All you care about is the initial frame data found on the 1st move list page and the final hit if you're using full strings.

So if you have a 112 string. The start up of the first 1 is 9 frames and the block advantage on the 2 (of the 112) string is +3. We can assume that this is technically a block infinite (something developers try to avoid). Because 1 is 9 frames. our baseline is 6 and the completed string grantes you 3/60ths of a second in frame advantage before the game allows them to start any sort of offense they want. 3 - 9 = 6

I'll keep going if you're interested. But this is the basic formula.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Wait what? The "2" in any 112 string is completely different than a standard "2"

 

[Sao87]

Ok, so I have a basic understanding of frame data and how it should work ... but there's some things that I just don't get.

Taking these two strings as an example:

Aquaman's marine marvel which is +2 on block and f1 has a startup of 7f which we all know as Aquaman's corner block infinite.

and

1.) Killer Frost's severe blizzard which is also +2 on block and 1 has a startup of 6f. But this is not a corner block infinite?

2.) Aquaman's string means you need a move with a startup of 4f (or 5f if you want to trade) which doesn't exist right?

3.) And KF's string means you need a move with a startup of 3f (or 4f if you want to trade) which also doesn't exist right?

4.) The only difference I see is the recovering frames: 15f vs 29f ... so how does it work?

---
Upon further investigation:

This might belong in the KF forum but if you trait cancel (correct term?) or end the string with 4 rather (if incorrect term) ie 111~4 this speeds up recovery and seems to be a corner block infinite (please note the "seems to be" as it's a little difficult to confirm this by myself)

Would someone be able to confirm this?

1.) Yes but the only variable that always needs to be accounted for is push block. The mechanic implemented to stop block infinites or radical forms of pressure. So I would think of everything that is a block infinte as more of a good frame trap.

2.) Only moves faster than 6f (that I know of) are bats being released or supermans 1 frame ultra. So yes hes technically at disadvantage but not by much.

3.) Right

4.) If you look at scorpions frame data. At first glance you might think he has a lot of block infinites. This is untrue (and I dont know the math for it) due to recovery frames being so high. I hope someone answers your recovery frame question because I really need to know as well..

 

[Jimmypotato]

yah I thought with the string Frame data the last hit was the right Hit and block data, because for example Arrows 113 string, the 3 at the end of that string is alot different then his normal 3 outside of the combo.

but I agree that the first hit of the string 1, should be looking at the start up frames of the single use 1 for the proper start up.

 

[Sao87]

Wait what? The "2" in any 112 string is completely different than a standard "2"

Yea. If I'm reading correctly. Some strings may have multiple enders in 2. If the animations look different, the data is different. So a stand 2 and a 112 may have different data. You need to look at the single hit data and the string data.

 

[Sasuga]

yah I thought with the string Frame data the last hit was the right Hit and block data, because for example Arrows 113 string, the 3 at the end of that string is alot different then his normal 3 outside of the combo.

but I agree that the first hit of the string 1, should be looking at the start up frames of the single use 1 for the proper start up.

If you look up the frame data for any string for any character, the frame data listed applies to the last move in the string.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

KF's string is not a block infinite because of the pushback on her last hit.

 

[kappie.wp]

Sao87 you're more than welcome to continue as I know there will be more people looking for this kinda info.

I now need to know that if you are in the corner using Killer Frost and you use 111~4, 111~4, etc is this a block infinite or can it be interrupted? (besides push block obviously)

I'll post this question in KF forum as well.

 

[kappie.wp]

KF's string is not a block infinite because of the pushback on her last hit.

Yes but the trait cancel negates the pushback

 

[Jimmypotato]

If you look up the frame data for any string for any character, the frame data listed applies to the last move in the string.

Yah thats what I was I saying, I miss read what you wrote up there.

My understanding is that the framed data on the strings is for the last hit.
But the start up frame data for strings never seems right to me. for that I look at the single moves data of the first hit of the string for the start up frames.

 

[Sao87]

Sao87 you're more than welcome to continue as I know there will be more people looking for this kinda info.

I now need to know that if you are in the corner using Killer Frost and you use 111~4, 111~4, etc is this a block infinite or can it be interrupted? (besides push block obviously)

I'll post this question in KF forum as well.

I think that would depend on the the advantage 111 yields and what the start up/recovery would be on trait. I haven't touched KF yet, so I don't know what the draw backs may be. But I do know charging her ice takes time and time is frames. So the 111 would have to be +10 or more i'd imagine before I started to think about it as a potential infinite.

Regardless anything into trait into a mixup is potentially good. My brother hits me with a lot of ending strings short xx bats activate into mixups for example. Because mentally you're braced for the 3rd hit of a string and wont press buttons until then.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Try setting superman to reversal mode using his super.

If that wont do it, its probly a block infinite

*edit
I tested 111-4 loop in the corner. Superman cant reversal super he stays in block stun the entire time

Nice find i guess =p


*double edit

KF 1 hits high LOL. Ducking owns this "block infinite"

 

[kappie.wp]

I think that would depend on the the advantage 111 yields and what the start up/recovery would be on trait. I haven't touched KF yet, so I don't know what the draw backs may be. But I do know charging her ice takes time and time is frames. So the 111 would have to be +10 or more i'd imagine before I started to think about it as a potential infinite.

Regardless anything into trait into a mixup is potentially good. My brother hits me with a lot of ending strings short xx bats activate into mixups for example. Because mentally you're braced for the 3rd hit of a string and wont press buttons until then.

Have a look at GGA 16 Bit against PL for trait cancel examples, the recovery of trait is 16f iirc. I will hopefully try to confirm this over the weekend if I get some game time with a few buddies.

Busy life so game time is very limited.

 

[kappie.wp]

Try setting superman to reversal mode using his super.

If that wont do it, its probly a block infinite

*edit
I tested 111-4 loop in the corner. Superman cant reversal super he stays in block stun the entire time

Nice find i guess =p


*doubt edit

KF 1 hits high LOL

fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ... I'm pretty sure it was mid. So it can be ducked?

 

[Sasuga]

Yah thats what I was I saying, I miss read what you wrote up there.

My understanding is that the framed data on the strings is for the last hit.
But the start up frame data for strings never seems right to me. for that I look at the single moves data of the first hit of the string for the start up frames.

Yeah, that's what I do too. ^^

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Like i said in the first reply, theres more to moves than frame data.

Where it hits (overhead, high, mid, low), pushback, reach, etc

 

[Sasuga]

Like i said in the first reply, theres more to moves than frame data.

Where it hits (overhead, high, mid, low), pushback, reach, etc

It says where it hits in the framedata, doesn't it?

 

[Sao87]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuck ... I'm pretty sure it was mid. So it can be ducked?

Mids can not be ducked. Only highs. We always look for overheads mids or lows when thinking of ways to guarantee frame data explotits

Overheads cant be blocked crouched and lows cant be blocked standing so bonus points if you get those. But mids are still a guaranteed hit.

 

[DiZzyPhyZiks]

Yes but not every hit. 111 is a "mid" string but it starts with a high

Some strings have overheads and lows but it wont say both

 

[kappie.wp]

Like i said in the first reply, theres more to moves than frame data.

Where it hits (overhead, high, mid, low), pushback, reach, etc

Agreed, but I think I missed the 1 hitting high as the 111 ends hitting mid