Match-up Discussion Aquaman Matchup Discussion

[madefok]

Punishable with a reversal but because it's a multihit move it's basically unviable to try and reversal online.

It seems you have to input from the deep as you're blocking the guns so if they do ex you will get hit its a mixup i guess

So, back to basics then, dash blocking to get up close is still better.
Ok.

 

[Ben Reed]

I still REALLY question the practicality of trying to punish Deathstroke low guns with reversal FTD. On joystick, at least, with either alternate or default controls, it is REALLY hard to buffer the motion with the right timing without either getting hit (too early, dropped low block and got hit by 2nd shot) OR missing the punish (too late, DS recovered and could block for a free any-range punish with quick guns).

And I stand by my assertion that you really SHOULDN'T need that punish to beat even GOOD Deathstroke players (and I have played some SMART Deathstrokes). As long as you advance cautiously and stage smart mixup with full conversion (don't drop any combos you start) when you eventually get in (and you WILL get in, eventually, if you don't foolishly rush when you KNOW the DS player is ready for it), you should do more than enough damage on the inside to make up for whatever chip you had to take on the outside.

This is not a mission-critical punish to win the matchup, and honestly seems WAY too dangerous to attempt in a serious match IMO. If you mess up, you get HIT by guns, which leads to more guns for free (frame advantage), and the whole concept behind beating DS with Aquaman is not to get hit by guns, period. If you don't hit by guns, you will eventually creep in, and you will almost certainly do enough damage on the inside before or if you get knocked out again to defend your life lead by blocking and creeping back in. If you feed Deathstroke free gun chip because you insist on getting hit by low guns trying a flashy (and minor, unless you're at the absolute tip of dash b12 pickup range -- in which case you almost certainly have easier and bigger counters for whiffed or blocked low guns available) punish, you're playing his game, not yours, and you deserve to lose.

EDIT: I wouldn't attempt this punish offline, either. If you play as Deathstroke in training mode and watch the Aquaman dummy block and reversal punish, it LOOKS easy. But I assure you, when you try it yourself against Deathstroke dummy, you'll find it's MUCH harder than it looks, at any range. Do yourself a favor and just take the free dash on block (or b12, etc. if for some ungodly reason Deathstroke does it right in your face). If you want to SERIOUSLY limit Deathstroke's options, you need to get closer to him, not waste time at full screen trying pitifully to beat his gunshots.

And in case anybody gets the wrong idea, I think this matchup is in Aquaman's favor. Like, 6-4 good. Absolute bleakest-case scenario, it's 5-5. I think it was this good for him BEFORE the nerf to low guns. You have to respect DS's guns, but once you get in, you don't have to respect much else about him. And I think he's a lot easier to approach on the ground than characters like Superman or Green Lantern simply because he doesn't have air projectiles that go downward (and in Lantern's case, control a really annoying angle for Aquaman's jump + dash mobility). You do NOT need to be technical to beat Deathstroke. You just have to be smart and finish your BnBs.

 

[madefok]

And in case anybody gets the wrong idea, I think this matchup is in Aquaman's favor. Like, 6-4 good. Absolute bleakest-case scenario, it's 5-5. I think it was this good for him BEFORE the nerf to low guns. You have to respect DS's guns, but once you get in, you don't have to respect much else about him. And I think he's a lot easier to approach on the ground than characters like Superman or Green Lantern simply because he doesn't have air projectiles that go downward (and in Lantern's case, control a really annoying angle for Aquaman's jump + dash mobility). You do NOT need to be technical to beat Deathstroke. You just have to be smart and finish your BnBs.

Duly Noted.

 

[supernumian]

So, I fight against this basic Green Lantern that totally own me and I always end with a big WTF because I know my mistakes but can't find a way to correct me:

- Green Lantern's Lantern Might on wake up destroy me and I'm really scared about it because I don't know what to do to avoid it beside block but I can't find a good way to punish a blocked LM wake up.
- Abusing GL's Minigun always push me back so I can't reach him even with B2.
- It's strange but I can't AA GL's ji3 with D2 without being hit and beacuse I'm already in a juggle state, Trait is useless. Maybe it's the timing.

Any suggestion to my mistakes?!?
It's hella frustratring.

 

[Reptile Orion]

Ran across my first series of matches against Scorpion last night. I didn't play MK9 so I'm not up to speed on his specials, combos, and normals. Any thoughts on how to approach this matchup?

 

[madefok]

Ran across my first series of matches against Scorpion last night. I didn't play MK9 so I'm not up to speed on his specials, combos, and normals. Any thoughts on how to approach this matchup?

From what i recall seeing in TS Sabin's breakdown video, Scorpion in MK9 was a High Risk, High Reward character.
Meaning, you can get a lot damage from his mixups, but, you can get blown up pretty badly if your opponent guesses right.

From what i played last night with him, he seems to be almost the same as he was in MK 9, with a couple of SAFER new moves.
That's it, IMHO. And i remember to beat Scorpion was just a matter of having a little patience and guessing right once and punishing
him for it.

I think that same strategy applies against him now for Injustice.
Eventually he'll either throw out a TELEPORT (high), SLIDE (low) or a F+3 (overhead) that once blocked is easily punishable.
And remember to not just stand there, because he still has the Hell Fire, that is still unblockable.

 

[Reptile Orion]

From what i recall seeing in TS Sabin's breakdown video, Scorpion in MK9 was a High Risk, High Reward character.
Meaning, you can get a lot damage from his mixups, but, you can get blown up pretty badly if your opponent guesses right.

From what i played last night with him, he seems to be almost the same as he was in MK 9, with a couple of SAFER new moves.
That's it, IMHO. And i remember to beat Scorpion was just a matter of having a little patience and guessing right once and punishing
him for it.

I think that same strategy applies against him now for Injustice.
Eventually he'll either throw out a TELEPORT (high), SLIDE (low) or a F+3 (overhead) that once blocked is easily punishable.
And remember to not just stand there, because he still has the Hell Fire, that is still unblockable.

The Hell Fire wasn't a big issue for me but the teleport was. I was blocking down back but based on what your saying I need to be blocking high. Great info and thanks for taking the time to post!

 

[Maximoff]

The Hell Fire wasn't a big issue for me but the teleport was. I was blocking down back but based on what your saying I need to be blocking high. Great info and thanks for taking the time to post!

Scorpion's teleport is a mid-hit. It can be blocked high or low. Blocking low is easier because you can block it pressing down regardless of where he comes from and get a free punish.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

Ran across my first series of matches against Scorpion last night. I didn't play MK9 so I'm not up to speed on his specials, combos, and normals. Any thoughts on how to approach this matchup?

Water shield > Scorpion

Aqua wins this MU 6-4

 

[Qwark28]

DS vs aquaman must be pretty even

even without reversals against his low shots you can corner him almost without consequences, he does barely any chip, once you reach the corner its rape time, especially with a trident that takes 15% hp on block.

 

[jak d ripr]

How do you guys feel about aquaman vs the man of steel? It seems like it won't be too bad for aquaman, but I don't know nearly enough about the character but am very curious about the match-up because I can see it going either way if some of my suspicions are true.

 

[testyourpatience]

i actually fought a turtle bane today. it was really annoying. i was expecting him to venom venom venom charge charge charge but he didn't. he would just stay back, wait for me to use FTD or throw my trident and get his free dash. what i usually do to these players is wait for them to dash in close enough to where they're waiting to block one more projectile, but dash in and throw them instead. that didn't even work against this guy, he would always break my throw, and block my jump ins. not to mention he knew how to block aquaman perfectly.

in hindsight, i should have maybe done some F13 pressure instead of F13 scoop, or ending my blockstrings with water shield, but i haven't practiced that yet. how do you guys deal with bane and how good is backdashing on wakeup with aquaman?

Okay, I was playing a bit in the lab vs. Deathstroke to test low gunshot nerf.

Thanks to the nerf you can now reversal punish Deathstroke's Low Shots on block with From The Deep (DB2), almost anywhere short of 100% full screen (think Raven range).

But my advice to you guys, even the people better than me at Aquaman? DON'T TRY IT, lol.

i always reversal his gunshots with raven's sou crush, even online. the timing is really weird online because it kind of seems like you have to do it while the last bullet is about to hit you lol. but i think the reversal window is fine in this game. to make it easier on myself, i hold down+back with the analog stick, block his guns, and then quickly do QCF 2 for a soul crush reversal. i can't do it online with the d-pad.

sad part is AMs trident is DB2 so i hope you're good at holding neutral down on your stick instead of accidentally holding D+F like i always do.

 

[Ben Reed]

testyourpatience

Bear in mind that Soul Crush (IIRC) is much faster to start up than FTD. Much easier to wait while blocking low guns with that move than it is to wait with FTD. I tried that punish for literally 20 min straight and out of like 150 attempts I successfully reversaled low guns, uh...three times. So not worth it IMO.

Anyone got any good tech vs Killer Frost WAKEUP slide? All I have so far with Aquaman is [any combo into f2 1+3, hold up-back, cross her up with meaty j1 if she slides]. Works, but it's hard for me to buffer the follow-up combo afterwards.

And of course there's MB b+3. But I'd rather not spend meter every time she wakes up if I can help it.

EDIT: Forgot about jump back j3 from f2 1+3 ender. I didn't think much about it the first time I looked for slide baits because I couldn't do combos off it, but now I can. Right now i'm trying jump back j3, b12~DB2 MB, 22~DB1, f2 1+3. Not optimal damage, but much more consistent than failing a jump back j1 combo and getting blocked.

 

[testyourpatience]

testyourpatience

Bear in mind that Soul Crush (IIRC) is much faster to start up than FTD. Much easier to wait while blocking low guns with that move than it is to wait with FTD. I tried that punish for literally 20 min straight and out of like 150 attempts I successfully reversaled low guns, uh...three times. So not worth it IMO.

Anyone got any good tech vs Killer Frost WAKEUP slide? All I have so far with Aquaman is [any combo into f2 1+3, hold up-back, cross her up with meaty j1 if she slides]. Works, but it's hard for me to buffer the follow-up combo afterwards.

And of course there's MB b+3. But I'd rather not spend meter every time she wakes up if I can help it.

yeah, soul crush is 13 startup and the game says 18 frames for FTD but i think it's a little more than that. soul crush doesn't have to be perfect reversal, but it's better if it is. i'm pretty new to aquaman, but if he can punish low guns, don't let deathstroke shoot them at you for free.

 

[Ben Reed]

It's really not a big deal in that matchup if Aquaman lets low guns go unpunished FULL SCREEN. If you don't punish them when you're already in his face, it's definitely a loss, but the reward for punishing low guns FULL SCREEN with reversal FTD really isn't worth the risk in my experience. If you fuck up, you're doing exactly what Deathstroke wants, taking damage at full screen wasting life AND TIME that you could otherwise be spending getting in his face, where Aquaman does a LOT more damage and Deathstroke has to take MUCH bigger risks to knock you out. The chip damage is really not that bad, and if you just take the free dash every time you block gunshots, he can only fire guns like 3-4 times at you before you finally get into attack range (b1/d2 range), and then he HAS to do something else to kick you out.

Plus Deathstroke basically has to guess on a 33% chance which guns to use (air guns? high guns? low guns) in order to keep you out, and depending on how often you play good Deathstrokes, it can be pretty easy to figure out their patterns and creep your way in without even TAKING chip damage (jump over a ground gun, duck a high gun, dash under an air gun). You don't need punishes to beat Deathstroke, you need PROXIMITY. Get in there, take away his options, and force him to play a game where the punishes are MUCH bigger than just DB2 MB, DB2 or DB2 MB, trident. If you try to play the inches game with Deathstroke punishing him on EVERY little gunshot, you will probably screw up, and you may very well LOSE for doing so.

EDIT: Just tested how many dashes it takes after blocked guns to get to b1/d2 range on Deathstroke. It takes a whopping THREE dashes to get to that range against Deathstroke. In the process you take a maximum of 5-6% damage in chip (less if Deathstroke makes a wrong read on guns). You can do almost 3x that damage MINIMUM for no meter off any successful b1 or d2 when you get in. This is more than acceptable for forgoing a full-screen punish that is ridiculously hard for very little reward.

 

[Thylacine]

Do you guys consider Raven bad MU for aquaman? I mean she can punish everything with like 40%

 

[testyourpatience]

Do you guys consider Raven bad MU for aquaman? I mean she can punish everything with like 40%

true. she can also single hit launch him with her grab and air 3 to make trait futile. but once you get the life lead and run away, she has no safe way to approach, and you can check her trait attacks with trident.
his pokes are obviously better ranged than hers, and aquaman is still a b*tch to block.

forgot to mention, her wakeups aren't particularly good.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Do you guys consider Raven bad MU for aquaman? I mean she can punish everything with like 40%

I have somewhat limited experience in the raven matchup, but my general strategy is to dash/ walk forward, and just get in. IMO he destroys raven up close and once he gets a health lead, she has to chase him. I say it is even personally, but I really want to get some more experience. Shame HGTV Ermacio dropped her, care to help the AM community out buddy? We could record in a couple weeks after you get some work in for her.

 

[Reptile Orion]

Struggled more than I would have like against a competent Bane player while using Aquaman. How is everyone handling that matchup these days?

 

[G4S Ermacio]

I have somewhat limited experience in the raven matchup, but my general strategy is to dash/ walk forward, and just get in. IMO he destroys raven up close and once he gets a health lead, she has to chase him. I say it is even personally, but I really want to get some more experience. Shame HGTV Ermacio dropped her, care to help the AM community out buddy? We could record in a couple weeks after you get some work in for her.

why not, itd be nice to play her, i don't really have to practice with superman...

 

[TRY_HARD]

Aquaman doesnt lose to raven watershield blows up soul crush so hard it really changes the mu

 

[Thylacine]

but that apply only when you have a life lead

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

why not, itd be nice to play her, i don't really have to practice with superman...

Yes you do....

 

[TRY_HARD]

but that apply only when you have a life lead

No watershield isnt used for keeping a lifelead

Hell you still get hit by soulcrush while in watershield but for w.e reason watershield reduces damage taken unlike MB b3 or f3 so instead of 2% on hit (which is the first hit of soul crush) you only take 1.32 or 1.6 damage (the earlier frames of watershield armor takes even less damage!) and soul crush is 1.25 on block so youre taking only decimals more of damage

The point of watershield is that the armor doesnt give you any block stun and soul crush is so bad on wiff you can always get a free dash cancell into FTD after a soul crush hits youre watersheild or a full combo from alittle inside max range soulcrush

From around midscreen you can dash once and land a jip1 (strict timing tho) or you can dash twice and f1 or b1 to punish it if youre in range

Outside of midscreen you can get just drop the watershield and FTD or dash and then use FTD and mb it into a dash b12 or another FTD depending on the range

And even if youre slow going in with the b1, f1 or jip 1 you should still be able to get a block string or pressure going (to get youre FTD blocked you'll have to be snail slow soul crush has 44 recovery frames and FTD is around 20)

I tested all of this awhile ago after fighting blindmans raven and thinking it was a hard mu too but yeah watershield>soulcrush hope this helps

 

[Thylacine]

yup, usefull. I runned like 70 games yesterday vs friends raven and i think this tactic still only apply when you are at life lead. Startup on shield make it risky to use to often. Still think block SC and dash/double dash him to corner is best tactic vs raven. MU 4-6 for me. maybe 4,5-5,5 but for sure feels disadvantageous.