General/Other Changes Bane will need in the future

[Doombawkz]

That's not how balancing occurs. It has nothing to do with multiple hits or not.

It's just an annoying perk I see when I do something and it gets blocked for half while everyone else gets to let the rest of their stuff ride out that's all.

I personally disagree, and there would need to be some balancing for the multiple hits because you'd have to take into account that this move is neutral on block BECAUSE its only doing the first single hit of the set. Imagine if you only did one hit of the double punch as an actual hit, the advantage wouldn't be the same as the 2nd hit.

 

[GodsLonelyman]

Oh goodness so much to cover and I'm no Bane expert...

Actually I am a bit of one, so I'll try to address everything in order.

2% could win you the match but just framing the link from the second b.23 into 123 isn't worth it efficiency wise.

I personally don't use command grab very often, I prefer Venom upper and usually the best follow up for either is just dash in and try to make that read. I've personally found blocking after the dash to be somewhat effective since a lot of character have unsafe wake-ups and the venom upper tends to rile people up when they are forced onto their backs. However, you can link a delayed command grab to hit meaty on wake-up and it'll catch a surprising amount of people. Likewise, you can do a late splash after the venom upper to cross up, it more opponent dependant than anything. Double punch is a good idea but it loses out to the invulnerable wake-ups because they tend to ignore the attack entirely. Moving yourself into range to poke them with a maximum range d.1 is also an amazing option at your disposal because if they don't wake-up you can get the +17 on hit with some meat or at the very least do a d.1 double punch low/OH mix-up, and with some characters if they do wake-up your hurtbox is a bit further back and low so some of the punishes flat out won't hit you.

b.1 and b.2 are good in certain situations, namely if you know your opponent won't wake-up attack because you've eliminated that option for them (Yomi), then a b.1 is a master key of a solution giving an amazing +16/+12 and having a recovery of only 9. That's means after a b.1 you can normal throw people for free just about using its low 10 frame start-up. You can also work blockstrings and mix-ups like b.1 double punch and b.1 d.1 double punch. The first is a simply low/OH that conditions them to block the 2nd hit high, while the other is a low/low/OH with the 2nd low giving +17 and opening the door for some block string mix-ups. If you are worried about wake-up attacks, do meaty b.1 cancelled into double punch as it'll let the b.1 eat the invuln frames and the double punch eat through everything else.

After b.11, delay the command grab by just a moment. Often trying to cancel it into a blocked string doesn't translate well. On b.23 if you mean on hit, the command grab has a slightly lower hitbox (you can see him crouch to scoop) so it can be a bit hard to land. HOWEVER doing b.23 dash under command grab (reverse inputs) is a sickeningly effective tool since the b.23 causes a fast stand state.

b.1/b.2 on hit I think can cancel into the command grab but you never have much reason to only b.2... b.1 on block you are better off going for the normal throw, and b.1 on hit you should be going into frame traps since the +16 gives your arsenal basically a bunch of 1-2 frame attacks.

Wow, amazing write up. Pretty much covered all of my questions and more. I'm copying and pasting this into a notepad. Thanks alot for the input, really appreciate it.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

I personally disagree, and there would need to be some balancing for the multiple hits because you'd have to take into account that this move is neutral on block BECAUSE its only doing the first single hit of the set. Imagine if you only did one hit of the double punch as an actual hit, the advantage wouldn't be the same as the 2nd hit.

No, you really don't. Well in other real competitive fighters, it doesn't work that way too often. Two hits isn't much. It can be negative on block but I personally wouldn't make it punishable. But we're definitely stretching it if I said make it a quadruple punch and safe on block.

Plus a lot of other characters have similar 2 hitters or stuff that does that much damage on hit that are pretty much safe/positive on block. It's really not a big deal if Bane would be granted a tidbit like this.

 

[Doombawkz]

No, you really don't. Well in other real competitive fighters, it doesn't work that way too often. Two hits isn't much. It can be negative on block but I personally wouldn't make it punishable. But we're definitely stretching it if I said make it a quadruple punch and safe on block.

Plus a lot of other characters have similar 2 hitters or stuff that does that much damage on hit that are pretty much safe/positive on block. It's really not a big deal if Bane would be granted a tidbit like this.

True, I was more worried about the double punching ending out like b.1 on block than anything.

 

[Doombawkz]

Wow, amazing write up. Pretty much covered all of my questions and more. I'm copying and pasting this into a notepad. Thanks alot for the input, really appreciate it.

Yeah sure, I don't mind answering any questions you may have as long as you don't mind me answering them fully lol

 

[Hiryu02]

How tight is the timing for b23, b23, 12? I haven't been able to land it in training. Is there some sort of timing or trick to it? For me I cannot connect anything after the second b23.

 

[Doombawkz]

How tight is the timing for b23, b23, 12? I haven't been able to land it in training. Is there some sort of timing or trick to it? For me I cannot connect anything after the second b23.

The timing is a bit strict, you have to be able to do b.23 b.23 and then make sure you hit the 1, because if you go for 123 it'll more often than not come out as 2. Basically, b.23 b.23 then mash out 1

 

[LEGI0N47]

There's so many launching specials, some meterless and safer than Venom Uppercut, anyways, ground bounce cancels are pretty useless/situational as it is.

Yeah but only 1 that provides real damage. And in that instance Venom uppercut (MB) is used to end the combo in a corner to set up a free cmd grab. I'm not talking about AA uppercuts but yeah it's not the best in mnay situations.

 

[Jagernaut]

It'd be nice to be able to cancel Raging Charge, not necessarily mid-run, but just during the initial start up frames. Thinking of Grundy's Walking Corpse Cancel

 

[chief713]

1. Make f.2 useful in someway either a really hard knockdown ex. Nightwing's 223 string or make it not as negative on block.
2. Apply the change to f.2 to the "Juiced" string (112)
3. Change the string "Veritas Liberat" (f.2 d, 2) to either be special cancellable or something useful
4. Rework the string "Infinite Crisis" (f.2 d, 3), either make it not as negative on block OR My thought is to make the 3 wallbounce so that it's still a risk to use it if blocked but has a reward now that is worth the risk.
5. OPTIONAL: My change that i have been wanting for a long time is to give bane a MB option that wallbounces/ground bounces. It would add a lot of depth to his combos and make some of his weaker MB options better and overall give him a use for meter besides Command Grab, pushblock and clash and the occasional super. My thought was to make Venom Uppercut's MB to wallbounce, in it's current state it knocks the opponent across the stage and doesn't help bane at all.

Thanks for reading! Feel free to add feedback or suggestions!

1. I agree. I'd be fine with -5 on block.
2. Not a bad idea, but that string is pretty useless, IMO.
3. I think this string is fine. Special cancellable would nice, but not something he needs.
4. I completely agree with this. Also think the 3 in f2d, 3 should have the same block/hit advantage and wallbounce of b3. f2d, DB MB, j2, 123 xx ring toss is 39% with lvl 1 venom. I believe he should get that with regular f2d, 3.
5. I was actually thinking this same thing. The MB part of VU should have a damage decrease and gain wallbounce. MB VU, j2, 123 xx ring toss should do like 25% no venom. That would improve Bane's defense quite a lot as wakeup and AA VU would become a lot more dangerous.

Aside from those, I feel he needs a change to charge similar to what Doom described with the incrementing armor by venom lvls. Also, the damage-taken debuff has to go. Being slower, doing less damage and having access to nearly no defensive options on cooldown is penalty enough. I played a really long set with my friend, a Flash player, yesterday and I can't count how many times I'd open him up with a d1/b1 frame trap, get a knock down and then mix him up throughout all 18 secs of venom for like 80% damage, only for him to rush me down during debuff and get just ONE touch into a 65% bnb to pretty much even things right back up. Bane doesn't need to be debilitated that much.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

Charge cancel not needed.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

At this point, I don't care what buff they give him. I'll take it. He's such a flawed character that any buff will help. ANY.

I still want my air throws being the most damaging move in the game though...

 

[GGA Max]

At this point I feel like Bane can hold his own. He's got the increased mobility with the faster dash, and the venom cooldown decrease helped a lot. As a Bane player you need to stay on opponents like a junkyard dog. I don't see many changes to him that would give more of an advantage than he has now.

With that said, his Ring Toss eats at me because it's a useless move when it comes to doing what it was meant to do. It doesn't even gain a hit of armor with Venom. If that were the case, it would be a great asset. Venom Uppercut is a good AA, but if it whiffs or is blocked you're left in a punishable state. Having Ring Toss with a bit more reach or a hit of armor would give the move the umph it needs to do what it needs to do.

Other than that, I don't see what you could do. Sure, they could slap some new numbers on frame data, but I'm pretty happy with his frame data. Regarding his jump, you don't really need to jump with Bane unless you're going for a cross-up in the corner or can predict certain moves that require a jump in retaliation.

I'm content with Bane other than the useless ring toss.

Ring toss has invincibility frames to air normals and probably specials. Very useful since you can use it on reaction. Plus has better range than doomsday's. Not sure about Grundy. Also you can end combos in it if you want to throw your opponent into he corner.

 

[SUPARNOVAX]

At this point, I don't care what buff they give him. I'll take it. He's such a flawed character that any buff will help. ANY.

I still want my air throws being the most damaging move in the game though...

Yeah? Where do you see these flaws? I wanna read what people feel and think are Bane's flaws.

 

[Tiger Wong]

You know what would buff Bane and everybody else but help him out more than anything else?

forward roll on knockdown.

Hell, I actually wouldn't mind getting knocked down by DS's air guns/Superman's heat vision/Sinestro's trait/etc if I can get to fucking roll forward and get in closer.

I mean really..... WHAT IS THIS SHIT?! You can only roll away? WTF? This is how you know NRS wanted the zoners to do the most work. How can you have a backwards roll on knd but not a forward roll? How is that fair? Or make sense? Did MK have that too (never played it)? It's terribly one-sided.

 

[Doombawkz]

Yeah? Where do you see these flaws? I wanna read what people feel and think are Bane's flaws.

Honestly imo, his flaws are as follows:

1) No venom on Ring toss, Just ring toss in general
2) Half of his normal strings are good but some (112, f.2d 3) are just pointless
3) Meter-burn has its uses, just none of them are necessarily practical
4) f.2 without projectile immunity
5) hyper-dependant on lows
6) This will always be a world of two-hit projectiles and parries
7) buggy super.

Or to narrow it down

1) Ring Toss
2) Useless options
3) Opponent options
3) Super

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Yeah? Where do you see these flaws? I wanna read what people feel and think are Bane's flaws.

Fastest move is a 9 Frame High. Fastest non-high is 11 Frames that does not string. Fastest mid is 13 frames. No projectile. Horrible jump. Big hitbox. Slow wall bounce/overhead. No full invincible wake-up. No invincible/armor moves without meter/trait. Trait suffers penalty on cooldown.

Those are not character specific criticisms. They are general criticisms of general mechanics that every character has to work with, and in all cases, Bane's are the worst in the game.

Now we can look at the character specific problems. No way to beat armor (without level 3 venom). No invincibility or armor (without trait). Armored moves are slow and easy to stuff by 2-hit strings. Damage is horrible without trait. Damage is horrible without landing a super or command throw, which can both be evaded by jumping AND throw invincible moves. His solution to the jump option is an air throw that is negative ON HIT, inconsistent, and does weak damage. No answer to punish backdash.

 

[Doombawkz]

Fastest move is a 9 Frame High. Fastest non-high is 11 Frames that does not string. Fastest mid is 13 frames. No projectile. Horrible jump. Big hitbox. Slow wall bounce/overhead. No full invincible wake-up. No invincible/armor moves without meter/trait. Trait suffers penalty on cooldown.

Those are not character specific criticisms. They are general criticisms of general mechanics that every character has to work with, and in all cases, Bane's are the worst in the game.

Now we can look at the character specific problems. No way to beat armor (without level 3 venom). No invincibility or armor (without trait). Armored moves are slow and easy to stuff by 2-hit strings. Damage is horrible without trait. Damage is horrible without landing a super or command throw, which can both be evaded by jumping AND throw invincible moves. His solution to the jump option is an air throw that is negative ON HIT, inconsistent, and does weak damage. No answer to punish backdash.

You don't know much about bane it looks like. Surface value only goes so far

 

[jfunkey]

He can command grab if the person backdashes on wakeup but it's character specific, there's a few that it doesn't work on and for those match-ups, it does suck, but if you move them into the corner you can usually do your work there and theres not much they can do about it.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

You don't know much about bane it looks like. Surface value only goes so far

I'm still using him for Evo. And I know plenty of Bane to know a low tier when I see one. The arguments and technology in this thread only make him less low tier. He still sucks. If you're playing to win, you would never play Bane. If you're playing to have fun like myself, buffs make the experience a bit more enjoyable.

 

[Doombawkz]

-snip-

Fastest low is +17 on hit, it doesn't need to chain when it makes your arsenal more or less 1 to 2 frames each. Also has huge reach. Our fastest mid is 12 frames. No projectile cant be helped, the jump isn't TOO bad but its not practical. It does let us punish some things other character land too fast for. Hitbox is big, yeah. The wall bounce and overhead are kinda slow but you can trap into them. Double punch is full invuln for the first punch of it. We have 18 seconds of free armor, honestly level 1 cooldown is low enough that you have consistant armor and Bane is made around this fact. Trait gives more than it takes.

IMO We don't have it that bad. Our dashes are amazing, our damage is pretty dang good, and our wall carry and oki pressure are amazing.

Actually we CAN beat armor, just differently based on the armor move in question. Point above about trait. You can't stuff a double punch all that easily, and more often than not you can't stuff upper either because it hits as soon as it starts. 38% meterless without trait isn't "horrible" but again, he is made to be played with the trait. Damage isn't too bad if you go for advantage as venom upper does a fair share of damage. Also we have plenty of set-ups that cannot be jumped out of for both. We don't have to ring toss though we DO have it, we can venom upper, standing 2, f.2d, etc. We can command grab backdashes, and our b.23 goes as far as superman's f.23 so we can usually reach and keep on them.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

snip

If you can hit them.

 

[Doombawkz]

If you can hit them.

Unless you are saying with our doomsday speed dash we cant manage to hit a single d.1, then its a given you'll hit them at least once.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Unless you are saying with our doomsday speed dash we cant manage to hit a single d.1, then its a given you'll hit them at least once.

That doesn't change the fact that he's a flawed character. My strategy is to dash and do a low kick and hope you don't jump back dash or armor through it. And it hits, I get a mix-up. If not, let's start all over. All this time, chip chip chip eats away at us.

sidenote: Why is nightwing's staff shock a physical attack? Shouldn't it be a projectile?

 

[Doombawkz]

That doesn't change the fact that he's a flawed character. My strategy is to dash and do a low kick and hope you don't jump back dash or armor through it. And it hits, I get a mix-up. If not, let's start all over. All this time, chip chip chip eats away at us.

sidenote: Why is nightwing's staff shock a physical attack? Shouldn't it be a projectile?

If they jump you can cancel into venom upper, otherwise you just keep chasing them. If it hits, you get a frame trap and the beginning to your oki game. If not, you are still close enough to keep pressure.

Sidenote: same reason BA's lightning and GL's minigun aren't. NRS logic.