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General/Other Changes Bane will need in the future

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DF2+R2
That doesn't change the fact that he's a flawed character. My strategy is to dash and do a low kick and hope you don't jump back dash or armor through it. And it hits, I get a mix-up. If not, let's start all over. All this time, chip chip chip eats away at us.

sidenote: Why is nightwing's staff shock a physical attack? Shouldn't it be a projectile?
You have to condition people with d1 double punch, no one respects anything on hit/block, especially online
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
IMO he isn't a "flawed" character. He has a specific purpose, all of the tools to do said job with, and at the end of the day he is the best at it. The only problem is theres a supply, but no demand. He has the tools, he has the job, but he isn't getting paid what he should.

Only problem? Theres only a handful of possible buffs to give him where he is still a balanced character without being lopsided.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
So Doombawkz has Bane on total lockdown? Head to toe?
I wouldn't say that, he is a balanced character in a world of unbalanced juggernauts. I'd say I know a fair amount about him, enough to see the potential for growth while still keeping the character out of nerf range. Overbuffing him would pretty much be counter productive because while he is up with the rest of the cast for maybe a 2 or 3 week stretch, after that he gets "normalized".

He isn't made to do insanely high damage without venom, his meter-burn attacks are more to supplement his kit and give him options (not all of which are practical)... But the huge advantage on hit for most of his attacks and the quick cooldown on a lot of them for what they give? A +12 with only 9 frames of recovery is nothing to sneeze at, a 11 frame with +17 on hit isn't either. His air grab is made for the highest mix of damage and meter possible (Giving just short of the body splash in terms of damage and actually giving more meter at early venom levels) while linking into strings that overall do more damage in trade for a lack of advantage. Doing j.d.3 b.23 223 air grab, for example, will be about 2 or 3% shy of body splash but give more meter and wall carry in exchange for the lack of instant advantage. You trade off the now for the later, as it would be.

He is made to smother, to stay in. Obvious given his kit, but then you have to see how good he is at it compared to a lot of the cast. Just off of ground work alone, he can meat through practically anything off of a single d.1 and it forces you to back out. Nightwing can chain d.1s in the corner, yeah that's dangerous but you don't have to block low against it (his d.1 hits mid, after all) but against Bane you have all this advantage AND the risk of overheads and command grabs. You have 22 dash wake-up directional swaps coming from him in the corner, b.23 and 113 charge dash under/overs which are crazy to try and defend against... People downplay him but theres a reason the best strategy is to stay away. Despite his slow normal attacks, just the threat of being locked down against a guy like him where at any moment in his 10 second blockstring of lows he can delay command grab or instant overhead and go into oki is enough to force people out.

Then we get to the corner. At the start of the match, lets say you land a d.1 (which the match usually starts at its max poke range), if you manage to first hit it, b.23 b.23 12 MB double punch will carry most characters fully to the corner and comes out in about 1 frames worth of time. Then you have huge advantage on hit so you can get in and go meaty, or stay in their face and force them to respond while you have dollar store armor to eat through most answers. Add also, once you are in the corner your meter gain explodes as Bane, being able to link 3 b.1s onto any b.23 and still go into a 123 combo or linking 2 and going for a 223 combo is nice. The b.23 traps make people have to respond much much quicker to your advances and can set up some awkward (and sometimes unbeatable) scenarios, while the OHVCS tech keeps a constant threat of an unjumpable, untechable, untradeable, impossible to backdash super looming over you. Grab immune attacks are the only way to go, and most lack wake-up invulnerability. If you can't meager out the attack before the Bane super lands, you'll find yourself taking up to ~85% and being chucked into the corner with us getting advantage. This isn't even including his ability to do his best frame traps in the corner, going from a 10 second trap to far more lengthly traps all of which reset the moment the opponent decides to respect or not respect the double punch. The 10 frame normal throw which can be trapped off of his b.1, d.1 (on hit), b.23, f.1...


Bane reminds me a lot, and I mean more than anyone, of Murduk from TTT2. Explosive, momentum based gameplay that doesn't rely on grabs so much as is greatly complimented by the damage the grabs provide. The damage isn't necessarily the highest, nor the combos or normal being the best, but just the inability for some characters to get away from him while he can keep a constant full offensive is what makes him an effective character. People like Bane aren't for relying on their own tools, but ensuring the opponent cannot respond with as much towards you as you can while forcing yourself forward. Yeah, he has some flaws but I don't think theres a single character who can trap and pressure as well as he can. Bane isn't too scary when his b.1 is 17 frames, but when he sets up those traps and gets 1 (on hit) and 5 (on block) b.1s that may not link into each other but provide enough advantage to make each one a dangerous tool against an unwary opponent then he comes into his own.

Yeah yeah, theory fighting and "he lacks answers to this or that" but imo his tools are great and he is fun to play as. I wouldn't say I have him "on lockdown" as there is still so much to find with him, nor would I consider myself a reliable source, but its not hard to fathom the common words of everyone about Bane...:

"If you don't know the match-up, a Bane will be obnoxiously hard to fight. Once you do, it gets easier."


He needs a few small changes and he will be able to contend. He won't be as lopsided, but he will avoid the nerfbat while most other characters will be "normalized" to fall in line with one another. Armor per venom level, parry immunity, and a bit faster of a charge. Give him that, and he can go even with a LOT more people. As I said though, that's just me.
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
I think the problem is simply that his risk/reward is really lopsided. Characters like Bane usually have a lot more health and/or do a lot more damage to compensate for the fact that they naturally have a hard time getting in, often taking lots of chip and projectile hits just to get close and start up an offense. So that when they do, it really counts.

But in this game, the heavy zoning characters are far from helpless up close and most of them do comparable or superior damage relative to Bane. And the fact that he has a stupid debuff further cripples him. How familiar is this scenario? Patiently navigate GL or Batman projectile game. Finally get in and score a knockdown. Do some serious damage, mixing them the fuck up. They guess right once and hit you with a bnb for 50%+ damage; or the round ends and resets the situation, automatically giving them the advantage; or they clash, which will almost always be an advantage for them. And then you're back to square one. Against really good opponents, it's not uncommon to never get another chance to get in if you blow it. Even if you don't, round end and clash ensure that you opponent will always have 2 get of jail free cards. But there's nothing like that that gets Bane out of zoning for free.

And Bane is horribly predictable. This game is very dash oriented and Bane doesn't have much of anything to make you respect him at far range. As such, it's painfully obvious that he's pretty much limited to dash in, armor move or d1. This is even more true against opponents with multi hit projectiles. When a character is that one dimensional, it's a lot easier to formulate a strategy against him.

Either something in his design has to change to make it easier for him to approach or he needs a big damage increase or more damage opportunities with his normals/specials.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
I think the problem is simply that his risk/reward is really lopsided. Characters like Bane usually have a lot more health and/or do a lot more damage to compensate for the fact that they naturally have a hard time getting in, often taking lots of chip and projectile hits just to get close and start up an offense. So that when they do, it really counts.

But in this game, the heavy zoning characters are far from helpless up close and most of them do comparable or superior damage relative to Bane. And the fact that he has a stupid debuff further cripples him. How familiar is this scenario? Patiently navigate GL or Batman projectile game. Finally get in and score a knockdown. Do some serious damage, mixing them the fuck up. They guess right once and hit you with a bnb for 50%+ damage; or the round ends and resets the situation, automatically giving them the advantage; or they clash, which will almost always be an advantage for them. And then you're back to square one. Against really good opponents, it's not uncommon to never get another chance to get in if you blow it. Even if you don't, round end and clash ensure that you opponent will always have 2 get of jail free cards. But there's nothing like that that gets Bane out of zoning for free.

And Bane is horribly predictable. This game is very dash oriented and Bane doesn't have much of anything to make you respect him at far range. As such, it's painfully obvious that he's pretty much limited to dash in, armor move or d1. This is even more true against opponents with multi hit projectiles. When a character is that one dimensional, it's a lot easier to formulate a strategy against him.

Either something in his design has to change to make it easier for him to approach or he needs a big damage increase or more damage opportunities with his normals/specials.
Lopsided? Only if you make it lopsided. Chip is maybe going to make you take 10-20% for the whole game. Most zoners go comparable damage to us, but they do so with a lot more work and a lot more riding on their ability to do so, and they only compare to us without venom. If you get in and hit a level 3 combo, unless you drop it you'll be dealing in the area of 60% or so and then you simply have to be safe for 6 seconds. Learning the MUs and knowing what the opponents need to connect with to do damage is important as Bane.

You can circumvent "round end" by ending the round with a well-placed venom upper which leaves you point blank. As far as "getting out of zoning for free", try to learn how to use the f.2 dash cancel, its projectile immune and lets us get in. Against a good opponent you may not get in again? Even the best opponents can't keep out doomsday, and we are in the same boat as far as our dashes go. I recall playing a deathstroke of credible skill, and even at my worst level I didn't have trouble getting in about 7 or 8 times per match (my ability to capitalize wasn't the best), and Deathstroke is surprisingly one of the hardest to get in on in general because of how fast the guns are.

Clash they only get one of, and our independence of meter pretty much makes sure we will be doing more and more damage. We also happen to have the clash to relieve pressure if we go get jumped on our bigger cooldowns. Bane is predictable at a range where he has nothing except for jump and dash to work with, yes. Up close, no, its impossible to predict a good Bane when you only have a 33% chance of being right while he has a 66% chance. At a range where you have d.1, you also have f.2d, double punch, command grab. They can say "oh he has an armor move or d.1" but when that encompasses a grab, low, and overhead that's not being predictable.

He doesn't need a damage increase at all. At level 2 venom (not even the high damage one) we do for free with 1/5th the execution what BA has to waste a bar and time his b.3 to do, being ~50% combos. As I said before, armor per level takes care of everything since 3 hits of armor will basically take away MB lightning and minigun as options to keep us out. No one compares to our damage, and up close unless you use only one or two attacks every single time I can't see someone with three options which cover one another for the most part being "predictable".
 

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
Dude, the damage is definitely comparable. Most combos in-match are gonna start off with b23, and then pump venom and finish the combo. That's gonna get you in the range of 50%, which most chars, especially the top tier, do, albeit usually with meter. But who cares if they have to burn bars to get similar damage if they constantly get meter from chucking projectiles? And ease of execution is kinda moot.

Our damage doesn't hit cataclysmic levels until we use venom. And the fact that he has to worry about debuff and working around the duration and cooldown at all puts Bane at an unnecessary disadvantage. If you want to do enough damage to compensate for the difficulty of getting in, then you have to pump venom, and if you don't manage it perfectly, you can easily find yourself taking 50%+ from simple bnb's that are even harder to avoid than normal because armor is a big part of Bane's defense and he loses it in debuff.

Bane's effective up close, but you have to get there. Everyone knows the space that Bane needs to be in to be effective and most characters are equipped to make sure he doesn't reach it. Not to mention interactables if you get an unfavorable stage. For as long as they can keep him out (which isn't as easy anymore, but still not much of a hassle for the top tier), Bane remains painfully predictable.

I'm not saying he doesn't have the tools to deal with stuff. He does; he just has to work a lot harder than most, and his room for error is a lot more narrow than almost all the rest of the cast.
 

SUPARNOVAX

Low tier? I was born in it, molded by it
Mmm I don't see Bane as a high combo damage character. He's kinda like Zangief/Hugo to me. Mediocre combo damage but his damage is in the grab resets and I don't see anybody attempting to do any of those kinds of things.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
Mmm I don't see Bane as a high combo damage character. He's kinda like Zangief/Hugo to me. Mediocre combo damage but his damage is in the grab resets and I don't see anybody attempting to do any of those kinds of things.
I do every chance I get and I'm sure most the of the real Bane mains do as well. Why wouldn't you?, especially with venom 2&3. Most chars need a combo to get that much damage.
 

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
I think if they remove the debuff, it should only be the damage he takes. I think the slower speed debuff can stay.

Just wondering, would having Ring Toss hit Standing opponents as well as airborne and juggled be asking too much? It would give the opponents more reason to duck and make his double punch and body press more effective.

And as always, ring toss should be the most damaging move for Bane.
 

-Deadman-

Getting better with age
As soon as they make all projectiles and MB projectiles ACTUALLY projectiles, we'll be in better shape.
We level3 venom charge to get projectile immunity to go through the projectile we read only for them to MB and blow us up because its physical.
And then there's complete asshats like Green Lantern who can trait up for a full screen physical chaingun to chip you out.
I'm not even sure we can pushblock him out of that move to minimize chip damage.

And while I'm the subject of things that don't make sense.
Anti-Projectile moves that lead to full combo vs a charge.
- Kitty Matrix
- Flash Vibrate
- WW wristbands

Parry on lv3 charge still annoys me. You can get a read on Joker's Gun, armored charge, and he can STILL parry you before you get to him...

Our charge needs something different, because its blown up too easy by parries, anti projectile moves to full combo, and even projectile immune level 3 gets blown up by projectiles because... reasons.
 

SUPARNOVAX

Low tier? I was born in it, molded by it
I do not believe he deserves any bit of the venom debuff cuts. There's no justification and it hurts that character a lot right now. The actual wait between refreshing is enough but making him take more damage and move slower makes zero sense.

I mean I've got unjumpable and undashable setups but dude has to work to get in people's faces to setup the wall carry into corner situations but the game design is blame as well with long stages and interactable objects being a crash course for Bane to navigate through against half the roster.

The debuff stat cuts are NOT a good design and should be removed. The waiting period is enough to keep the armor properties in check from being over used

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk 2
 

Uber

Mortal
Bane only really needs a few things to be able to compete.


1) Safe F2. This would finally give bane a threat from outside normal range. It could still be pretty negative on block(-12 or so, not -26), just add a lot of pushback.

2) F2 and F2D gain armor at all venom levels. This would make dealing with zoners so much easier.

3) Make BF1 either faster or gain a cancel. Its almost useless now. Something must be done.