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The Death of Zoning in Injustice: GAU

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x0Kakashi

x0Kakashi

Kneel before me.
Doombawkz said:
Dave has shot himself in the foot, that was then and this is now. Tell me what that topic has to do, directly, with what this topic is trying to convey?

You must've missed the "this isn't for new players" thing I put in my quote of you earlier.
Why do people pick rush-down and go away from Zoners? Why would people bother to pick them now that they have hard counters?

Why play a MU and struggle to adapt and fight with only half your kit? If you are competeting, there isn't any reason to.
Plain and simple, at the top level this kind of mindset you have will get you booted out of pools faster than you can say "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH".
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I could be typing another book and trying to explain my point but lets just agree to disagree cuz this isnt going anywhere

GG
 
webreg

webreg

Apprentice
I think m2dave is right and that's a good thing. Pure zoning is boring as hell to play as and annoying to play against. I like hybrid characters like DeathStroke is now that can zone in the appropriate moment but need to use more than that in order to compete. Injustice you are doing it right.
 
Duck Nation

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
Sweet jesus. There's all kinds of things I could slap any number of people in this topic for, but let me start with, what the hell are people talking about when they say "conventional zoner?" How many zoners have they even played? Go back through the history of fighting games and you're going to find that nearly any character who emphasizes a projectile game has good reasons to or is even forced to get close at times to press their advantage. The "conventional" zoner has tools not only to hurt people at the other side of the screen, but to push other characters out and to regain position. If we're talking "conventional" zoners, then that is in fact exactly what Injustice has. An unconventional zoner would be a character like Nu from BlazBlue, who basically has literally nothing but projectiles and can only make them useful in a space at least a character length outside her own body.

Cyborg and Deathstroke still depend on their projectiles for a significant part of their game, the fact that they go in sometimes does not automatically preclude them being zoners.

Also, as a DS player, I don't think he has any more than five matchups I would consider a loss, and his guns are still highly relevant in most of them. I would love to have some recovery back on the low shots so that he doesn't eat a free iceberg on block against KF, but it's one matchup. Having to sword flip people every once in a while and learning a few combos is far from the end of the world, and far from the end of zoning.
 
jaym7018

jaym7018

Warrior
Also in what world is ares batgirl or raven a hard counter to deathstroke. You guys act like he doesnt have a better up close game than all 3.
 
Celerity

Celerity

Lab Monster
Doombawkz said:
Fair enough, when you use a character who has hard counters and you get countered at a top level and find yourself unable to make the next tourney because "I tried to adapt" or "But he has these other tools" then you can't complain about sitting at home eating cup o' soup and watching where you could've been had you chosen to pick the better character.
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Exactly. m2Dave has these strong opinions of who the best characters in the game are, and his drive to win is so voracious that he decides to use characters he believes are complete garbage instead. Makes sense, right?
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Celerity said:
Exactly. m2Dave has these strong opinions of who the best characters in the game are, and his drive to win is so voracious that he decides to use characters he believes are complete garbage instead. Makes sense, right?
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Except that's not the point. He isn't saying to pick these characters, in fact he isn't giving his own opinion about the characters themselves in the form of liking and disliking them outside of theres no reason to pick them at the top level because of their counters. He can pick who he wants, doesn't make his point any less valid or true.

Theres no reason to pick the zoning 3 at a top level because they have 2 snug counters. This is true as of right now.
There are characters without said hard counters whom operate at a top level. This is true as of right now.
If you plan on winning, you have no reason not to choose these characters aside from loyalty. This is and has always been an inconvenient truth.
 
JackhammerM60

JackhammerM60

"The destroyer of worlds"
I don't believe zoning is dead, but ever since Batgirl and Scorpion, I haven't used Sinestro as much anymore.
 
Celerity

Celerity

Lab Monster
Doombawkz said:
Except that's not the point. He isn't saying to pick these characters, in fact he isn't giving his own opinion about the characters themselves in the form of liking and disliking them outside of theres no reason to pick them at the top level because of their counters. He can pick who he wants, doesn't make his point any less valid or true.

Theres no reason to pick the zoning 3 at a top level because they have 2 snug counters. This is true as of right now.
There are characters without said hard counters whom operate at a top level. This is true as of right now.
If you plan on winning, you have no reason not to choose these characters aside from loyalty. This is and has always been an inconvenient truth.
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The points aren't what I disagree with, it's the attitude that his characters should be buffed just because he plays them and because he wants to win, and anyone who doesn't understand that is obviously not a competitive player. Fine, maybe the characters suck. Adapt and pick someone else. He's not entitled to have his favorite character be top tier just because he says so.
 
jaym7018

jaym7018

Warrior
Doombawkz said:
Except that's not the point. He isn't saying to pick these characters, in fact he isn't giving his own opinion about the characters themselves in the form of liking and disliking them outside of theres no reason to pick them at the top level because of their counters. He can pick who he wants, doesn't make his point any less valid or true.

Theres no reason to pick the zoning 3 at a top level because they have 2 snug counters. This is true as of right now.
There are characters without said hard counters whom operate at a top level. This is true as of right now.
If you plan on winning, you have no reason not to choose these characters aside from loyalty. This is and has always been an inconvenient truth.
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Stop saying just because they have teleports they hrd counter them. Sinestro deathstroke and cyborg ll have options besides pure zoning
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
Celerity said:
The points aren't what I disagree with, it's the attitude that his characters should be buffed just because he plays them and because he wants to win, and anyone who doesn't understand that is obviously not a competitive player. Fine, maybe the characters suck. Adapt and pick someone else. He's not entitled to have his favorite character be top tier just because he says so.
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I won't deny your opinion, but that opinion is separate from the topic at hand and should be taken to the proper area for further discussion if any should be necessary. He likes characters, they got nerfed, he isn't happy. That's common, it happens all the time. He calls for buffs, and he isn't saying "IF YOU DON'T AGREE DS NEEDS TEH BUFFZ UR STOOPID SCRUB CASUAL".

He is saying people denying the harm the nerf did and disregarding Deathstroke's need for a buffing to make him a choice worth choosing over the idea of "oh just adapt" are not looking at it with the proper mindset. He wants to win, yes. He wants to play his favorite character and win with him. Sure, who doesn't? Saying that he is wrong for wanting buffs after an admittedly harsh nerf so his character has a reason to stand out as a choice over other options is ludicrous.

He had a solid character who is considerably less solid after a nerf brought about by a base of players whom likely won't stick with the game as long as people who will be forced to deal with the nerf will. I like Deathstroke, I feel he is solid but I can no longer deny M2Dave's ideal that he is not a viable choice.

People make the mistake of thinking a "viable choice" is the same is "general viability". Sure, yes, Deathstroke is viable. By all means, he can still win and still does. However, that doesn't make him a viable choice when theres other characters whom have better options that would provide better odds of victory. You can pick him if you want, but it isn't going to be the best choice. When it comes down to who wins and loses, "viability" is paper thin and only a clutch few are the true "viable choices" while others are simply "choices whom are viable".

Theres a difference between "Track Star" and "track runner". They can both finish the race, but one is more likely to win than the other. That's not to say you can't root for the track runner, sure he wins some races, but when you are putting money on it then it becomes a different matter entirely.
 
Doombawkz

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
jaym7018 said:
Other characters are better then batgirl and scorpion why not pick them?
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Why bother when I can shut down half your kit and get a free win? If we are skirting 1-1 and you are stuck with the zoning 3, I have no reason not to pick batgirl / scorp and take away your zoning. Rely on that other half of your kit that you were never meant to rely on so heavily while I use all of mine to full effectiveness.
 
Duck Nation

Duck Nation

Dicks with a future
Doombawkz said:
That's nice. Other characters have the same options only better.
Why not pick them instead?
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Deathstroke still has excellent projectiles and is still one of the hardest characters to move against. You will get shot trying to move in against a good Stroke. This couples with some of the best punishing ability in the game, superb wakeups, safe standing true 50/50s, an ambiguous crossup vortex and an ambiguous corner bounce crossup. The nerf on his guns mostly served to make mid-range a weak area for him, making it harder and more dangerous for him to move against other characters. Don't let Dave fool you, he's still entirely worth playing and he's still an A(+?) tier character.
 
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