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Online Complains/Rants About Etiquette, Players, Netcode, Desyncs etc!!

Killphil

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
I trash talk all the time. I do it to get challenged quicker and then I do it when I beat said person's ass. I don't use the same moves, I know decent combos with a multitude of characters. Until someone knocks me off my pedastal, I won't stop trash talking. Two people quit out because they don't know how to block. He chats and says "use another move ******". I told the scrub his ragequitting tears were delicious.
 
lobo

lobo

woof.
ViciousShogun said:
No. Online shouldn't be taken seriously enough to where you have to make silly little rules for it.
Click to expand...
you are right. we should probably make a joke out of and shun and ignore the ten thousand or so people playing online as we speak, we don't need them anyway, right? they can't ever get good and move to the offline competitive scene...

:/

this kind of attitude is poison to the MK9 community if it plans to survive past one year post-release.

that said...back to the topic at hand.

people may abuse lag tactics without knowing that they are doing so, simply because of inexperience. please take a moment to read THIS POST to get an idea of my intentions for this thread. it has worked out very well for every online FG community i know, and i'd like to see TYM the online FG community come together with something similar.

now, it is obvious that some moves such as kabal/LK/sindel low fireballs are crucial to their success competitively. however, it is also obvious that from full screen they become grossly overpowered online. it is the same as can be said about many characters' 1A in soul calibur or low sweeps in tekken or ibuki slide in SF4. all of these moves have legitimate uses but become nasty OP online.

it sucks to do, but in my opinion, if we come together and agree on a set of guidelines that we can all follow, it may take a move or two away from some characters, but in the end it will strengthen the competitive nature and overall skill level of the TYM online community.

note that this is NOT a place to call out other players for using what you perceive to be lag tactics. do that through PMs or not at all. this IS, however, the place to post, discuss, and explore what may be boosted to the point of skewing offline character balance when playing online.

my initial suggestions as to what i would call MK lag tactics are:

-using moderately unsafe moves (those which are punishable by strictly timed dash>jabs or the fastest launchers) such as KL spin or raiden TP against respectable players repeatedly, after you have seen them attempt to punish and fail.

-using low projectiles from farther than jump distance as zoning tools. i understand that this may hurt certain characters' zoning game (ie: kabal), but as with any free-in-lag-low, they simply have to go in order to make online bearable and legitimate as a learning tool. also, maybe kabal players can use it as an excuse to hone those instant air spark skills!

i don't have enough knowledge yet as to the frames of this game or to the actual amount of frames an optimal connection will lag on PSN/XBL to make any real suggestions about "online frame trap" restrictions, but i'm hoping maybe to get some help with it?

hopefully by the time this game hits the 6 month mark, we will have a strong team of players and a strong set of universal guidelines to help us and newcomers to get the most out of online play, as bad as it may be.

edit: also thanks mod team for re-opening this thread. it will serve a good purpose in the long run, i promise.
 
Dark_Rob

Dark_Rob

Champion
lobo said:
you are right. we should probably make a joke out of and shun and ignore the ten thousand or so people playing online as we speak, we don't need them anyway, right? they can't ever get good and move to the offline competitive scene...

:/

this kind of attitude is poison to the MK9 community if it plans to survive past one year post-release.
Click to expand...
If you knew the history of this community you would understand better where Shogun is coming from. The MK community is notorious for being based soley in online play. It is only recently that it has slowly begun to embrace offline and the tournament scene.

that said...back to the topic at hand.

people may abuse lag tactics without knowing that they are doing so, simply because of inexperience. please take a moment to read THIS POST to get an idea of my intentions for this thread. it has worked out very well for every online FG community i know, and i'd like to see TYM the online FG community come together with something similar.

now, it is obvious that some moves such as kabal/LK/sindel low fireballs are crucial to their success competitively. however, it is also obvious that from full screen they become grossly overpowered online. it is the same as can be said about many characters' 1A in soul calibur or low sweeps in tekken or ibuki slide in SF4. all of these moves have legitimate uses but become nasty OP online.

it sucks to do, but in my opinion, if we come together and agree on a set of guidelines that we can all follow, it may take a move or two away from some characters, but in the end it will strengthen the competitive nature and overall skill level of the TYM online community.

note that this is NOT a place to call out other players for using what you perceive to be lag tactics. do that through PMs or not at all. this IS, however, the place to post, discuss, and explore what may be boosted to the point of skewing offline character balance when playing online.

my initial suggestions as to what i would call MK lag tactics are:

-using moderately unsafe moves (those which are punishable by strictly timed dash>jabs or the fastest launchers) such as KL spin or raiden TP against respectable players repeatedly, after you have seen them attempt to punish and fail.

-using low projectiles from farther than jump distance as zoning tools. i understand that this may hurt certain characters' zoning game (ie: kabal), but as with any free-in-lag-low, they simply have to go in order to make online bearable and legitimate as a learning tool. also, maybe kabal players can use it as an excuse to hone those instant air spark skills!

i don't have enough knowledge yet as to the frames of this game or to the actual amount of frames an optimal connection will lag on PSN/XBL to make any real suggestions about "online frame trap" restrictions, but i'm hoping maybe to get some help with it?

hopefully by the time this game hits the 6 month mark, we will have a strong team of players and a strong set of universal guidelines to help us and newcomers to get the most out of online play, as bad as it may be.

edit: also thanks mod team for re-opening this thread. it will serve a good purpose in the long run, i promise.
Click to expand...
I understand what your trying to do from an idealistic point of view. The problem is it isnt going to help people get better the correct way. By training people NOT to use moves that are legitimate in tournament play soley because they are overpowered online is doing them a disservice. By conditioning people that certain moves are considered OP online its going to become ingrained in they're play and thus limit them when they try to move offline. There is unfortunately no way to use online to correctly prepare oneself for offline. Especially given MK9's horrid netcode.
Also even if we disregard all of that lag is never consistant from match to match, or even round to round for that matter. How much lag determines when a move is OP? Any lag? Then like I said your basically taking legitimate moves away only because they are OP online. How does that help either the player using that character or his opponent get better? They are playing under a set of rules that doesnt exist anywhere else.
Dont take this as a knock dude, because its not. I admire your idealism. Its just the way online play works that will keep this from being of any benefit.
 
lobo

lobo

woof.
thanks for clarification...i am not familiar with the history of the MK community. i hope the best for this first-in-over-a-decade shot at becoming tournament viable offline. this may work both ways, though. the MK community as a whole, if it is new to the recent prospect of big offline events, should still be able to integrate both communities.

my logic behind restricting certain moves is this...yes many of them, or all of them are legitimate offline. that said, using them creates a mindgame that should not exist online. i see it as somewhat selfish on the part of the offensive player. his/her gameplay can be adjusted around one simple move, while the defending player's entire offline gameplan is destroyed. to put it into perspective, let me reference something i know well, sc4. lol. i believe the concept applies to all games online.

cassandra has a low, horizontal sweep that is i26 and is easily blockable on reaction offline. it is also useful in tech traps as well as jailing grounded opponents who roll around too much. it is also a very good tech crouching choice when you anticipate your opponent doing a high attack. it has many offline uses and is, in fact, one of her better moves. now, online there is, in optimal connection, 5-7 frames of input lag in SC4. suddenly that i26 low becomes an i19 low, which is not really blockable on reaction. now, as a cassy player, it pains me greatly to omit using this move. it cripples my offline game. it gives me bad habits. however, it has forced me to come up with other creative ways to get that damage, which also work offline.

now, from the perspective of the defending player...it is not as simple as adjusting to one move. what it means for them is that they must now duck somewhat randomly in anticipation of this move which they could otherwise block offline. this opens up a floodgate and drastically changes the metagame of SC4. suddenly they are basing their defense on anticipation rather than reaction, and are ducking into big damage mid attacks left and right, which would normally not ever hit. they will develop habits far more detrimental than simply not using one move, and their offline transition, if based on this playstyle, will be disastrous.

the same thing goes for tekken. i can abuse lili or bryan's low sweeps into combos all day online. if i omit them, i don't really lose anything except for when it would land me a lucky CH. oh well. i can make a plan b. if i abuse them, however, it forces my opponent to twitch duck or duck randomly, opening them up to my entire arsenal of mid launchers and completely ruining the learning process for them...in fact making it detrimental to their skill.

i believe MK works similarly. a kabal player, for example, can learn to play without using his low blade as a zoning tool. he can spam instand sparks and find other ways to apply keepout pressure. if he does spam them online, though, the people he plays against are forced to adapt to a completely different style of play where they have to dash > crouchblock at all times just in case it is coming. all the sudden the defending player is not really learning anything about offline play, and is developing terrible defensive habits.

my point is that a decent player can omit a move and adjust, and then re-apply it offline just fine. that same player will have a far more difficult time learning to defend against mixups that should not exist and do not exist offline, and then adjusting to proper defense offline. the reasoning behind creating respectable omissions of moves, is to facilitate the offline transition and enhance the overall offline skill of both players as much as possible.

i hope that made sense. it is late as hell.

another thing to note is that this isn't something to worry much about now. these concerns got brought up and scoffed away in the beginning in the tekken, SC, SF communities as well. after about 6 months have passed it will be quite clear what does work online and does not work offline and how it effects us. any sort of etiquette standards are ludicrous until then. if you notice, the post from 8WR that i linked above is dated almost an entire year after the release of sc4. it is good, however, to have a place to talk about them as they arise. hopefully we can learn, as a group, to utilize online for the learning tool that it can be in terms of string recognition and overall metagame, and to apply those skills to offline competitions.
 
Scoot Magee

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Honestly,even with all those rules and such the game still plays totally different than offline. That goes for tekken/soul calibur as well. These are all games with extremely terrible netplay. Regardless of any rules that come about, a lot of shit that isn't supposed to happen is going to happen. People who shouldn't win will win and vice versa. I say if you're going to play online, play it for what it is, a different game.

I'm not the biggest fan of even SSF4's netcode but at least you can get competent play with local players without having to really change how you play (local meaning same state for the most part), anything beyond that is just way too random. Even then, consistent local online play will really fuck your timing up because online with delay netcode wil always have some frame lag. Games should be more like ggpo/mvc2/hd remix, all games with much better online. You can actually improve your game a lot on ggpo and use it as a legitimate form of practice for tournaments/sessions especially if you stay consistent in an offline scene. Playing those other games online will just make you worse but I do understand everyone needs there fix in there favorite game.
 
elPollo_Diablo

elPollo_Diablo

In The Lab
seems like someone doesn't have the balls to keep my comments on this thread

anyway, I have a question for you all
what do you guys consider ragequitting?
example: I'm in a match and I lost
as soon as the last bit of my life is depleted and Finish Her are on the screen, I back out to get into another match
Is this considered ragequitting in the MK community?

I come from the SF community so I'm used to jumping from match to match quickly
If I lose, I wanna take my loss and get back into a fight
I have no problem whatsoever when an opponent does it to me
In fact, I'm hoping they do
but when I do it, I get people crying in messages about me being a ragequitter??
eventhough the fight was over
is the necessity to perform a fatality that important?
I just want to clear this up if I'm over stepping some sacred MK custom
 
G

GStick

Noob
elPollo_Diablo said:
seems like someone doesn't have the balls to keep my comments on this thread

anyway, I have a question for you all
what do you guys consider ragequitting?
example: I'm in a match and I lost
as soon as the last bit of my life is depleted and Finish Her are on the screen, I back out to get into another match
Is this considered ragequitting in the MK community?

I come from the SF community so I'm used to jumping from match to match quickly
If I lose, I wanna take my loss and get back into a fight
I have no problem whatsoever when an opponent does it to me
In fact, I'm hoping they do
but when I do it, I get people crying in messages about me being a ragequitter??
eventhough the fight was over
is the necessity to perform a fatality that important?
I just want to clear this up if I'm over stepping some sacred MK custom
Click to expand...
My thought on this is that people should just wait to select "No" legitimately. Play a few matches with the person you're losing to, select "No", tell them GGs and move along. But then again, I never fatality anyone unless I've been playing like 30 player matches with them or something.
 
elPollo_Diablo

elPollo_Diablo

In The Lab
GStick said:
My thought on this is that people should just wait to select "No" legitimately. Play a few matches with the person you're losing to, select "No", tell them GGs and move along. But then again, I never fatality anyone unless I've been playing like 30 player matches with them or something.
Click to expand...
alright
I figured now to just let it ride no matter what
If I win, I'll just jab the guy to make it quicker XD
 
x BruteWolf x

x BruteWolf x

Noob
chessmaster said:
it's been a month and they still have yet to fix the online portion which they essentially made everyone pay $10 for. i'm disappointed. not only does it lag, but i still can't find a regular ranked or player match. i have to go in the chat rooms and challenge everybody one by one and then the game still lags sometimes even with a perfect connection.
Click to expand...
Yep, because there is a slight amount of lag which will fuck up your combos if your "online" timing isn't perfect. Practicing combos offline and online are two completely different things, I actually have to slow down my inputs online, which makes me upset to no end.
 
smalltalk

smalltalk

Noob
I think Lee-K posted something about the way he checks if there is lag.

Lee-K said:
A good trick is to just do circular motions on the select screen and then let go, and see how instantly it stops. If you see it moving after you let go, especially if it's a noticeable amount of time after, just quit the match. It sounds stupid but it works well. I do it every match.
Click to expand...
I do this every time now, but honestly the lag is getting less and less apparent now.
 
I

InfidelLance

Noob
When i first started i rage quit alot, but now when i lose i dont ragequit ever, me watching the opponent do a fatality is humialiating and i savior it lol to get better.
 
Zebster

Zebster

How's my volume?
elPollo_Diablo said:
seems like someone doesn't have the balls to keep my comments on this thread

anyway, I have a question for you all
what do you guys consider ragequitting?
example: I'm in a match and I lost
as soon as the last bit of my life is depleted and Finish Her are on the screen, I back out to get into another match
Is this considered ragequitting in the MK community?

I come from the SF community so I'm used to jumping from match to match quickly
If I lose, I wanna take my loss and get back into a fight
I have no problem whatsoever when an opponent does it to me
In fact, I'm hoping they do
but when I do it, I get people crying in messages about me being a ragequitter??
eventhough the fight was over
is the necessity to perform a fatality that important?
I just want to clear this up if I'm over stepping some sacred MK custom
Click to expand...
It's nothing like that, it's just they don't know your intention for backing out of the game before the game automatically does.

Also, if you duck out of a match before it's finished the guy doesn't get his win which some find annoying.

Edit: Had someone ragequit on me yesterday. Was during devildigimon's stream and it was a player who was winning most of the time during KotH. When the room disbanded he challenged me and after losing twice I abused some lag tactics with Johnny Cage during the second round (won the first 1 by chance) (f3,3,b3 if he didn't stand block, f3,3xxenhanced forceball if he did, which by the way was practically impossible to pull of because the game kept dropping the input with the lag SO bad). It was pretty disheartening really cause you could see him just giving up on it, doing less and less until the round was over. Of course, he DC'd right after.
 
CaliJokerstyle

CaliJokerstyle

Dies A Lot
So i made a new account and i went in to the beginers room to let rank trolls take me on, oh the hate mail is hilarious. I love how much people online care about their record it just makes me laugh. If you want a good laugh try it out. I was just purely bored and had the idea pop into my head after seeing lots of guys with high win loss ratios and well over 200 games in Beginers listed rooms.

BTW: when i do this i do not accept any matches with people who have low play counts or bad w/l cause i dont want to be one of the trolls
 
Lord Beef

Lord Beef

Death Metal and Trance
Totally thought about doing this myself. Might have to now, with scorpion for the added Haterade.
:D

-b_s- :headbang:
 
McNasty

McNasty

Moist.
I found a good one tonight go on really late at night and go into whatever room has the most people and you find what id call the "whales" of online records these guys all had 1000+ wins to 200 losses I guess the humor in it all is how well adapted to online they are most were fairly solid players they just play online too much haha.
 
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