Why 50/50 should never be used in tournaments

[Dizzy]

Hello all. I am here to explain why 50/50 is really bad for tournaments and should not be used for them.

Please refer to my matches with GGA 16 Bit at UFGT this weekend for a real, tournament-tested application of this. With 50/50, power characters vs gadget/agility characters becomes a massive imbalance with Metropolis Rooftop. I truly feel that a MU that is 4-6 could swing to 7-3 with something as simple as a 50/50 on stage select.

Now, I'm sure the immediate counter argument is that there is many stages that favor power characters. However, Metropolis Rooftop is a special case in which there are drones that continuously respawn that are only thrown by Power chars. On other stages that favor power chars (probably) with TVs/Monitors to throw, they do not continously respawn while ALSO following the character. It is out of control. The drone floating to the power character gives them a massive zoning advantage that makes the opponent take risks to get out of the "danger zone".

Banning this stage for balance purposes does not solve the underlying issue and I DO NOT think this stage should be banned. The real issue is the 50/50.

My proposed solution is using random stage (the one that shows up on the portrait and is highlighted by default) every match. The loser can rematch or re-random. This makes it so a particular stage has a ~4.1% chance of appearing as opposed to a 50% chance.

Games with imbalanced stages like SC/Tekken have adopted random stage only after many years of tournaments. Some characters without a doubt in those games benefit more from walled/ringout stages and some benefit more from infinite stages. This game is no different that some stages greatly benefit some characters, I think this game has the stages swing even more wildly in some characters favor, even. This is why I propose the tournament standard be random stage.

Even if this is not adopted, please TOs, at least take my advice and never use 50/50 stage selection again.

Signed,

Dizzy
Top 8 at UFGT due to Metropolis Rooftop 50/50s

 

[shogunoflive]

I feel a little differently. Here are rules I suggested

http://testyourmight.com/threads/stage-selection-rules.33221/

 

[MorbidAltruism]

I thought most people agreed that random is better....

 

[TotteryManx]

You had me at "hello." It's really a fucked advantage. I watched some players lose the 50/50 3x straight lol. I completely understand.

 

[SLy]

Metropolis rooftop is an obstacle course for the non power characters. I agree with this 110%.
How the drones follow the power characters sounds dumb as hell though. I. Hope this is not the case, and if it is then I don't know what nrs was thinking.

 

[IceNine]

I think that this is probably for the best.

I think stages are an important part of the game, but at the moment their power might be a wee bit much.

Stage strategy will still remain an important facet of the game in that players that know how to take advantage of whatever stage they're given, which makes me happy. I like this aspect of the game.

 

[ForeverKing]

Hell yeah 50/50 is retarded. There were a couple tournament matches I had where every single match my opponent's level was selected with the 50/50 and I didn't get my level a single time. That means I was being counter-picked the whole tournament set. FUCK THAT.

Everyone needs to just pick Atlantis every match like me and be done with it lol. Atlantis is the fairest stage in the game with the least amount interactables, I always choose this stage no matter what character I am selecting.

But yeah tournaments would be better with random stage every match, if not at least make it loser selects level. 50/50 is bullshit. In my opinion Atlantis should just automatically be used for all tournament matches automatically all the time but that's just me

 

[Error]

Fuck all of you, I main power characters.

You know nothing of strength.

 

[Smarrgasm]

Hell yeah 50/50 is retarded. There were a couple tournament matches I had where every single match my opponent's level was selected with the 50/50 and I didn't get my level a single time. That means I was being counter-picked the whole tournament set. FUCK THAT.

Everyone needs to just pick Atlantis every match like me and be done with it lol. Atlantis is the fairest stage in the game with the least amount interactables, I always choose this stage no matter what character I am selecting.

But yeah tournaments would be better with random stage every match, if not at least make it loser selects level. 50/50 is bullshit. In my opinion Atlantis should just automatically be used for all tournament matches automatically all the time but that's just me

Atlantis favors gadget characters though so it is not neutral. There is not a true fair stage that ive really come across. Themyscira up top is about as close as ive seen. Gotham rooftop is good as well but after the transition you go down to the alley which gives gadget characters the super powerful dumpster. Im gonna look more into all the stages soon and maybe write up how each one favors who and where. I wont be able to get it down for a few days though.

 

[Vogue]

As stated many stages give power characters an advantage. At least with 50/50 characters have at least a 50 percent chance to get a stage that they prefer. 50/50 is very fair .

 

[ForeverKing]

Atlantis favors gadget characters though so it is not neutral. There is not a true fair stage that ive really come across. Themyscira up top is about as close as ive seen.

They need to make it like when a power character punches the glass and all the water spills out, the hose will stop spitting out water. Where the hell is that water coming from, the water tank just got emptied!?! lol. And gadget characters should be able to place a bomb on sides of Atlantis so that other gadget characters can no longer use the hose.

Than Atlantis would be perfect. It's only flaw is that gadget characters can infinitely spout water from the sides

 

[webreg]

Here is my opinion from another thread:

Ok, let us theorize about how stage selection should (not) be done. Encounters are usually 2/3 or 3/5 in finals. What if the first match is 50/50 and loser's pick:

Match 1: 50/50 stage pick. A wins stage pick. A wins round.
Match 2: B picks stage. B wins round.
Match 3: A picks stage.

Match 1: 50/50 stage pick. A wins stage pick. B wins round.
Match 2: A picks stage. A wins round.
Match 3: B picks stage.

Due to the random stage selection in favor of A, he has the match advantage in both scenarios by fighting in two out of three stages of his choosing. This is an unfair advantage. The same principle applies to 3/5. Choosing the first stage completely random diminishes the problem slightly but still presents the same situation and can skew the fight in favor of either combatant. So the random element at the start needs to go. The idea that the loser can pick the stage is fine and in line with character selection. There are two ways to make this happen.

• Have a default stage for the first match that is as balanced as possible for every character. This has the added benefit that every player can properly prepare for this stage because he knows he has to fight in it. This will probably still favor some character over others because I don't think there is any one stage that can be considered equal ground for everyone but this is still a better choice than this random nonsense. The problem will be to find a stage that most people can agree on. It is possible though. Even if it isn't then the tournament organizer can simply decide this. A community consensus would be preferable though.
• Disable interactables for the first match. I assume the characters are balanced around the idea of the presence of interactables. So taking them away will hit some characters harder than others. However, the players know that there will be a match without interactables and they can prepare for this occasion. I think this is also an acceptable way to do it although I would prefer the first option. It is also awkward, prone to problems and time consuming to do this. Many a match will have to be restarted.

What do you think?

 

[Lumpymoomilk]

This would seem much less stupid if they respawned less and did less damage.

 

[LEGEND]

my issue with the random stage select is when do you decide to go with the background stage? After a Button check? before the button check? whenever you first sit down? what if you sit down before your opp gets there and quickly back out to main menu cause you didn't like the background stage?

My solution to this mess is to return to the menu once both players are ready and get a new random map.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Hell yeah 50/50 is retarded. There were a couple tournament matches I had where every single match my opponent's level was selected with the 50/50 and I didn't get my level a single time. That means I was being counter-picked the whole tournament set. FUCK THAT.

Everyone needs to just pick Atlantis every match like me and be done with it lol. Atlantis is the fairest stage in the game with the least amount interactables, I always choose this stage no matter what character I am selecting.

But yeah tournaments would be better with random stage every match, if not at least make it loser selects level. 50/50 is bullshit. In my opinion Atlantis should just automatically be used for all tournament matches automatically all the time but that's just me

Atlantis is really good for gadget characters though. Every stage benefits someone more, that is how this game works. That being said 50/50 is stupid and should never be used.

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

They need to make it like when a power character punches the glass and all the water spills out, the hose will stop spitting out water. Where the hell is that water coming from, the water tank just got emptied!?! lol. And gadget characters should be able to place a bomb on sides of Atlantis so that other gadget characters can no longer use the hose.

Than Atlantis would be perfect. It's only flaw is that gadget characters can infinitely spout water from the sides

According to someone I know, Ed Boon demanded that the hose spit out water even after the glass is broken.

 

[Under_The_Mayo]

I truly feel that a MU that is 4-6 could swing to 7-3 with something as simple as a 50/50 on stage select.

I'm glad we're discussing this more seriously, but are there really any stages that drastically swing matchups other than the stages with respawning throwable items for power characters?

Let's just straight up ban Metropolis and be done with it. It's not that big of a deal to ban a stage if it's changing the matchup so much. WatchTower is also silly but at least everyone can throw the little ship.

And LEGEND brings up a great point. The stage is shown at the character select screen! Do we go with that stage even if it changes after a button check? And if someone "accidentally" goes back to the main menu and it changes again? This could get really messy.

Solution: Ban Metropolis. And then the first fight is a 50/50 stage select between what both players want to play on.

 

[chores]

its dumb that there is no 'random' option on the stage select screen. it would solve so many problems.

if you were using a 'use the default level first then 50/50' setup then you have the possibility of people choosing characters based on the level. that should never happen. choosing levels based on the character is fine but the other way around is dumb. the level being more important than the character is awful. like dizzy said, taking a matchup from 4-6 to 7-3 is just too much.

 

[webreg]

One question though. Is the background really random? Can all stages of every level appear and do they all have the same chance? I didn't pay attention to this so I honestly don't know. But let me make an example for an uneven selection process no one would probably notice: Maybe the game randomly picks the level first and then it randomly selects a stage from that level. If that were true then Atlantis would be much more frequent than the Metropolis Museum.

 

[Dizzy]

webreg

Interactables disabled first match sounds good but seeing as how everyone seems to love interactables (not me) I dunno if this will be implemented.

@people who bring up atlantis first match

I don't like atlantis. Favors gadget chars. That valve is dumb especially if they are a zoner who wants to run away (to the corner)

 

[chores]

One question though. Is the background really random? Can all stages of every level appear and do they all have the same chance? I didn't pay attention to this so I honestly don't know. But let me make an example for an uneven selection process no one would probably notice: Maybe the game randomly picks the level first and then it randomly selects a stage from that level. If that were true then Atlantis would be much more frequent than the Metropolis Museum.

hmm this is interesting. my gut says that its by the level in it's entirety e.g. Atlantis has the same chance of selection as the combined chance of Metro Mus/Roof

 

[webreg]

webreg

I don't like atlantis. Favors gadget chars. That valve is dumb especially if they are a zoner who wants to run away (to the corner)

What stage do you feel is probably the most balanced among all the characters? Because it would honestly be the most efficient, simple and straight forward solution to just have one default stage for the first match. Everyone would be able to prepare for it and there would be no surprises.

 

[BehindTheLight]

ban stage transitions and all interactables and we are good to go

 

[Vogue]

All stages favor a certain character type/ play style / gameplan whatever. 50/50 is literally the fairest thing possible. Loser can either change characters and re-50/50 or pick stage. That is the best answer.

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I said this when the game came out and had certain people tell me that it was never a good idea to "ban a feature of the game". But I think it's true; given that stages can really favor certain characters in matchups, it doesn't seem like a good idea to leave it all up to luck.

Also the concerns about Random auto-stage are on-point; If I don't like the random stage I hit back and change my character skin or edit my config again -- it happens all tge time andnobody really says much about it.