Do People Understand the Vanilla Versions of Games?

[GrundyFox]

I am not going on about anything. You asked why I was quoting you, I gave you a response. You don't get to berate me... then elaborate on what you meant... I responded to you before you addressed anything. :16Bit

I didn't ask why you quoted me, I asked you why are you trying to put words in my mouth. Kind of an subtle yet astronomical difference I suppose...

 

[MorbidAltruism]

I didn't ask why you quoted me, I asked you why are you trying to put words in my mouth. Kind of an subtle yet astronomical difference I suppose...

I don't know why we are having this discussion. I said that the vanilla excuse is a justifiable blanket statement which was contrary to your opinion which I didn't even address. I didn't put words in your mouth... I bolded your own words. If you would like to continue discussing this please PM me via the conversation feature. :16Bit

The point is that the game has only had a month to evolve. It will get better/worse in the coming patches.

 

[GrundyFox]

I don't know why we are having this discussion. I said that the vanilla excuse is a justifiable blanket statement which was contrary to your opinion which I didn't even address. I didn't put words in your mouth... I bolded your own words. If you would like to continue discussing this please PM me via the conversation feature. :16Bit

The point is that the game has only had a month to evolve. It will get better/worse in the coming patches.

OK, fair enough lets both step back since we're heading in the totally wrong direction - no need to go down the path of apparent misunderstanding. I appreciate the candor of that statement.

As aforementioned, my point was if there is too much of something (for brevity sake) in the way of problems playing the it's on vanilla card doesn't always work anymore. Again, the aforementioned Tekken vs Street Fighter was junk when first released, patched heavily and its a far superior game to what it was. Yet still, it isn't popular and has yet to shake off what it's vanilla version did. Did meaning shooting itself in the foot.

I actually think they should wait a few months to patch it, release a "super" version of it while in the meantime heavily collecting data on everything that needs doing. I think some of the core mechanics of the game need addressing for it to have any longevity. Piecemeal patching on (almost) whims will only get it in further trouble.

 

[learis1]

I'm curious what characteristics distinguishe a flaw as being acceptable in the vanilla version or unacceptable in the vanilla version.

I'll start by saying completely obvious faults that ruin quality gameplay are unacceptable (there's no reason not to find and correct them in development).

Hard to notice or complex flaws that end up ruining gameplay to a greater or lesser extent can actually be acceptable (it's understandable to miss them in development and have to correct them in future patches).

My overall opinion is that this game is decent. I think there's some balance issues involving moves and tactics that are obvious enough and basic enough to have been noticed during development testing, but for whatever reason they were either not noticed or not fixed. Oh well, I still think it's a very creative and unique fighter. It honestly exceeded my expectations in terms of quality.

 

[xWEBSx]

You're basing your retort on some kind of bizarre presumption. In no way did I try to enlighten you or anyone, imply anything is ever released perfect, nor did anything akin to "back in the day" cross my mind. Yes, every game has its amount of things that don't fit - Sagat and Akuma being first to mind with SF4, however like with anything, if there are enough (or too many) numerous issues you simply can't give the blanket statement of "well it's only vanilla" and that'll somehow save it from ire.

An example of that would be Tekken vs Street Fighter. The game is far superior to its vanilla version but it has yet to truly recover from the damage its predecessor inflicted upon itself. The whole "ah its the first version" did virtually nothing to combat that. Thats my simple point. The game has a lot of strange issues (for brevity sake) that will in time be ironed out but also its core mechanics don't promote longevity to me.

But thats a whole other story.

There are more examples of the OP being correct than the point you are trying to make (especially in fighters).

-SF4- Sagat
-MvC3- Sent
-SFxT- Kaz
(I call these characters "flavor of the month")
(These are characters who have abuseable mechanics and rock the game, prior to someone coming along with anti-"flavor of the month" tech, to which a majority of the players jump ship onto the next flavor-IGAU: DS on release, Superman after month one).

If people actually understood the point of the OP, adapted it to each new fighter, elevated their game by learning and figuring out the vanilla MU's (instead of screaming for a nerf) there would be better balance in the later stages if games life.

You point out SFxT in your second paragraph.. This feeds right into the OP's point.. If people played the game, let the meta game establish, learn the new/different mechanics.. Pointed out the issues in a "constructive" way, and let the dev's flesh it out with the constructive feedback in hand.. You have an even better following to an overall decent game... Made even better when they critiqued the live version and made tweaks.

***Justin Wongs Sent teams in MvC3.
Lets break down the factors involved..
- his skill at fighters trumps most
- he carried over character experience from MvC2, saw what was different and adapted his gameplay from there.
-grasped the game mechanics quicker than the competition.
-NO ONE HAD AN ANSWER for Sent!! His Sent tech was light years beyond any anti-Sent tech.

His Sent teams were destroying people. He made Sent APPEAR OP and broken.

Aftermath of his dominance:
-many wins
-major exposure streams/youtube causing JWong Sent clones
-increased fury from non sent players
-yelling/screaming/justifying character nerf

Capcom listens and nerfs Sent(knee jerk nerf? Up for debate):
-Sent players are angry, drop him and move on
-other tech is developed for other characters making Sent tech look like child's play

Fast forward 2 years: community as a whole has regret for Sent being hastily nerfed.

In a day and age when there are at least 3 different versions of each fighter- a "vanilla standard" should be expected and true fighting fans should know this.

TL-DR- your loss

 

[GrundyFox]

-snip-

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. You're droning on and on about OP things when that wasn't my point at all.

Cheerio.

 

[xWEBSx]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. You're droning on and on about OP things when that wasn't my point at all.

Cheerio.

You ultimately said you cannot blanket a numerous amount of issues with "vanilla version" statement, then when on to speak about how the shitty attitude of many people ruined the reputation of SFxT.

 

[GrundyFox]

You ultimately said you cannot blanket a numerous amount of issues with "vanilla version" statement, then when on to speak about how the shitty attitude of many people ruined the reputation of SFxT.

Which holds hands with things being OP how?

Then further down the line I said they shouldn't be dong piecemeal patches and should wait several months to gather a proper amount of data.

 

[xWEBSx]

Which holds hands with things being OP how?

Then further down the line I said they shouldn't be dong piecemeal patches and should wait several months to gather a proper amount of data.

I just can't follow the flip flopping...
Either changes happen too soon to game/characters.. Use Sent in MvC3 as an example
Or your suggestion of letting the game linger for several months before changes- Use SFxT as an example

Both ways are flawed, both ways have issues and repercussions.. And there is one common factor- shitty attitude

 

[GrundyFox]

Flip flopping implies I changed my stance. Quote me where I said anything in the game - injustice - is OP. Instead of trying to be clever and snarky on a message board, follow the flow of the conversation rather than trying to turn it into a stage for your pointless and baseless accusations. No where did I say the game has OP elements. Nor did I say it needs lightning patches.

Aside from that I never mentioned MvC3 since I hate the series and never played it, so God knows where that came from. My point in brining up Tekken vs Street fighter was to illustrate saying "Oh gee, its just vanilla" doesn't fly anymore because that game is a hell of a lot better and its still unforgiven. Again, I am left baffled with what you're going on about.

As for the last bit. I would simply say waiting and collecting data is clearly superior then giving patches almost on the fly.

 

[xWEBSx]

My point in brining up Tekken vs Street fighter was to illustrate saying "Oh gee, its just vanilla" doesn't fly anymore because that game is a hell of a lot better and its still unforgiven. Again, I am left baffled with what you're going on about.

As for the last bit. I would simply say waiting and collecting data is clearly superior then giving patches almost on the fly.

Capcom and SFxT was working from behind the 8 ball even before the game released. From the rage DLC fiasco, to charged DLC post release, people had their minds made up before the game was released... People are still hurt by Capcom's choices and handling of Downloadable Content vs Disc Locked Content and feel cheated that a "full game" was never released to them. That is why the game is unforgiven. Add the hurt + shitty preconceptions + changes made to the game to make it what it is today = current state of that game.

The problem with all of gaming today is, someone makes a comparison to two different dev's in the same genre, and then bring their shitty attitude and preconception to the new fighter and say "yup, same issue, DLC, half game released for retail value" etc..

Vanilla version is a totally valid statement, especially in IGAU, there has already been a fix/patch during first round of DLC.

 

[trufenix]

no, crim, how could you

 

[GrundyFox]

@Web


Mm, I don't agree. Yeah, people were/are pissed about the DLC elements but it, however IMO, it was more so about how bad the game was. Which was accented so heavily with Infiltration locking down entire matches while hysterically laughing about it with jabbing.

That said, I am not implying I believe it's (Injustice) is as bad as Tekken x SF was but it certainly has elements to work on. Heavily I'd say. Again though, I simply don't think "it's vanilla" is a get out of jail free card. But hopefully I am wrong, I want to be wrong - I don't think it's the best fighter out there but I like it. I'd like it to get its "super" version to clean up the things I don't like about the game. I'd like it to be where AE is some time down the line.

 

[trufenix]

This really isn't acceptable anymore

With the type of information and technology and players that are out there......... vanilla versions of games shouldn't be this bad.
Most of it is completely out of the developers control (dates, timing... whatev).... but at a certain point... mediocrity shoudln't be accepted in this form.

Edit: it isn't about being spoiled.... it is about learning from history.

You act like the game isn't a far and away improvement over MK9 in every aspect. Even if you ignore MK9, Injustice at vanilla is hype and viable enough to have stolen attention away from several other games that have been tried and true for years. I challenge you to present me with this so called mediocrity in Injustice. There isn't a single aspect of the game that hasn't handled with care.

 

[xWEBSx]

@Web


Mm, I don't agree. Yeah, people were/are pissed about the DLC elements but it, however IMO, it was more so about how bad the game was. Which was accented so heavily with Infiltration locking down entire matches while hysterically laughing about it with jabbing.

That said, I am not implying I believe it's (Injustice) is as bad as Tekken x SF was but it certainly has elements to work on. Heavily I'd say. Again though, I simply don't think "it's vanilla" is a get out of jail free card. But hopefully I am wrong, I want to be wrong - I don't think it's the best fighter out there but I like it. I'd like it to get its "super" version to clean up the things I don't like about the game. I'd like it to be where AE is some time down the line.

We can all agree that the AE state of game is where we want all our fighters to be.. However with all the changes it took SF4 to get to AE, I fear this generation does not have the legs left to ever see true nirvana out of IGAU.. Especially if any of the major developers have a fighter in the wings for month 1-2 of next gen. That is why I am happy with the game as is. Since I believe in the vanilla theory- I think IGAU vanilla state is heads and shoulders above its competitions Vanilla state.

 

[GrundyFox]

Ef... I totally forgot to factor in the next gen consul aspect. That totally makes me wonder what they're going to do. Perhaps thats when the next iteration will come in. Ah, I see where you're going with this and I honestly didn't even factor that in - peoples` flighty nature and entitlement ideas. But that is kind of what I was saying too I suppose, people (generally speaking) aren't as forgiving so more testing should have been done. Thus why I said I'm not sure simply saying vanilla cuts it anymore.

My brushing aside aspect of it wasn't because I am personally annoyed by anything in that regard. I am one of the people who doesn't mind paying for updated versions of things as long as they're meaty both in gameplay and characters added. No, I don't mind waiting (or paying) one bit. I enjoy the game (though I am not sure I would play it if it wasn't comic book characters) and do think some mistakes were made with it. However, that said, I am ready to wait for the next version.


Yet not I am left wondering what they're going to do (overall) with the next gen systems coming out.

 

[cyke_out]

Beta testing is needed in any competitive game. Huge amount of data is gathered from thousands of players. This helps make the final game at launch be as perfect as possible.

In a direct to console fighter, there is no open beta test. An arcade fighter goes through a beta test by being an arcade fighter before getting onto console months or even years after the arcade release.

A vanilla version of a fighter is the beta test.

 

[Briggs8417]

Because you don't grasp the concept i'm trying to lay out?

It is dumb for me to ask for better? OK then.

No man you don't understand. When is the last time there was a Vanilla form of a fighting game that was any good?

 

[GrundyFox]

No man you don't understand. When is the last time there was a Vanilla form of a fighting game that was any good?

SF4

 

[xWEBSx]

No man you don't understand. When is the last time there was a Vanilla form of a fighting game that was any good?

I think most of the top fighting contenders Vanilla versions are "good" with a boat load of potential.. And that's what drives people crazy... The potential to be made GREAT.
I see what you are saying though.

 

[cyke_out]

SF4

You mean the very first version released to the arcades? or the version that was released on consoles after months of locations tests and serious arcade play?

 

[Briggs8417]

SF4

Have fun with Vanilla Akuma. Roundhouse links all day.

I think most of the top fighting contenders Vanilla versions are "good" with a boat load of potential.. And that's what drives people crazy... The potential to be made GREAT.
I see what you are saying though.

The thing is every vanilla version of a game will have broken shit. The good thing is that they can always be fixed. That's when games become great.

 

[GrundyFox]

You mean the very first version released to the arcades? or the version that was released on consoles after months of locations tests and serious arcade play?

Did they change anything suggnifigant I am not aware of?

Have fun with Vanilla Akuma. Roundhouse links all day.

Sorry, did I imply the game was without fault? You asked name a game that was any good, not perfect. SF4 was a damn solid game.

 

[cyke_out]

Did they change anything suggnifigant I am not aware of?

Yes, not only were new characters added from the arcade version, but it came with balance and tweaks to the existing cast.

It was in arcades for over 8 months before hitting the arcades. Which is pretty shot compared to a game like T6, which was on arcades for two years before hitting the console.

 

[GrundyFox]

Yes, not only were new characters added from the arcade version, but it came with balance and tweaks to the existing cast.

It was in arcades for over 8 months before hitting the arcades. Which is pretty shot compared to a game like T6, which was on arcades for two years before hitting the console.

Interesting, thanks for that. I thought your point (above a few) was excellent. Thats why I liked it, it gave me new 9and more importantly) valid perspective on it all. Was an excellent post - is an excellent point.