Normal or concerning?

[TakeAChance]

I have noticed a trend in Injustice's online character development.

I have been playing this game since launch and after drifting around a couple of characters found a character that fit the way I wanted to play. (Nightwing)

Now, I am not an elite player...I don't even think I could be considered a pro. I play and I compete at locals and whatever tournaments I can afford to attend.

My main practice tool is online. I don't have a scene near to me. I have tried numerous times to start one up but there is no interest on my end of the Island. Aside from my clan mates I have to seek out others for matchup experience.

This is where the problem occurs.

Online has become a breeding pool for hot topics and flavor of the months. First it was Deathstroke, then Batman, Then Black Adam, and now Superman.

I am in no way trying to hinder a person's right to select whatever character they want...but I am noticing more top players are also immediately running to the perceived top tiers. I am guilty of this to an extent because there was no way in hell that I wanted to main another Jade. In this case tho, the top tier in Injustice is much more powerful than even the tier underneath.

For instance, the current S+ tier Cyborg. His infinites alone win him every matchup.

Superman and Batman are just insane when played right.

How do character loyalists/ anyone underneath truly compete with these monsters?


This is undoubtedly going to turn into a nerf/buff thread, but that is not the intention. Right now like Pig Of The Hut mentioned, there is unfortunately a clear distinction between the TOP TOP characters and everyone else. We are at risk of having another Kabal/Kenshi/Kung Lao era. We still have the potential for at least 3 solid patches (with the DLC) and I am just hoping that this can be addressed in a timely manner.

Supermen are already flooding online, as well as tournaments. If nothing is done soon even the most die hard fans are going to get tired of it/ switch to superman out of necessity.

Also, I still don't think Deathstroke needs a nerf

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I don't think superman is that bad personally, but I play aquaman, so I guess my opinion doesn't count haha. I think the other characters in this game will get their dirt eventually and things will be fine. When you look at say, baraka in mk, you can see that he just doesn't have the potential to go anywhere as a character. When I look at a lot of characters in this game, I see potential. There is definetly hope. BTW, Nightwing is a fucked up character. Just fyi haha.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

The characters people gravitate towards are the ones they see winning on stream. Superman is good, Batman/Aquaman/BA are all very good yeah, but that doesn't , mean that less publicized characters aren't as good either.

I'd take my WW against any Superman right now in confidence.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Also, I still don't think Deathstroke needs a nerf

He sure doesn't

The solution to this is to try and seek out people on this site as opposed to randoms. You get less overall matchup exp and quite possibly less exposure to dumb gimmicks, but you're more likely to get solid players as opposed to shitty randoms who tier whore without knowing what they're doing.

Also I really don't think Batman is really a problem. His pressure and punishment are really good with bats, but I'm not sold on his mixups or neutral game outside of that and air mobility. Superman sure, but more because his gameplan is so bloody shallow for how good it is, which makes the game look bad. There's a difference between MvC2 top tier, which has deep player interaction at a high level and looks good when you understand the game, and Superman being a jackass with a single move all day. Nevertheless I think you're underrating the "weaker" characters, most are solid overall and have everything they need to be a contender. Yeah most of them have to outplay the likes of Superman, but for most characters it's manageable if you're smart and careful. Also you're guilty of nothing, wanting to use a bad/unstable character in a competitive setting with the intention of winning is flat out stupid.

Edit: My point is, overall balance is less important than how the viable members of the cast operate, especially the top tier. Fighting games are about nuanced player interaction, and single move characters aren't particularly conducive towards that.

 

[Juggs]

We won't get a Kabal/Kenshi type of aspect in Injustice because it's early in the games life with only 1 patch so far that did almost nothing balance wise. The reason Kabal/Kenshi stayed dominant is because they were found to be top tier too late, when NRS stopped doing balance updates. The only way we'll get the Kabal/Kenshi is if there's at least 15 Kabal's and Kenshi's, which I'm fine with.

 

[John Grizzly]

I'm seeing a lot of this as well. If I see one more f+2,3 string, I'm going to fucking put my head through my TV. At this point, I'm losing to BAD Supermen players.

Honestly, I don't want this game patched to hell, but a couple small changes would help. Let's start with maybe making the f+2,3, Breath string a little less safe on block? I doubt we will see this, though. Instead they will nerf an already low-mid tier character (Ares). I main Ares and Nightwing now....but man, they don't have much for Superman. Also....I just hate Superman period.

Say what you will about Kabal, but at least for him to be played at the highest level you needed really good execution to do the iAGB and NDCs. Wanna play top tier Superman? Can you do f+2,3? Then you're all set.

 

[dookieagain]

This is where the problem occurs.

Online has become a breeding pool for hot topics and flavor of the months. First it was Deathstroke, then Batman, Then Black Adam, and now Superman.

I am in no way trying to hinder a person's right to select whatever character they want...but I am noticing more top players are also immediately running to the perceived top tiers. I am guilty of this to an extent because there was no way in hell that I wanted to main another Jade. In this case tho, the top tier in Injustice is much more powerful than even the tier underneath.

For instance, the current S+ tier Cyborg. His infinites alone win him every matchup.

Superman and Batman are just insane when played right.

How do character loyalists/ anyone underneath truly compete with these monsters?

You've got bigger issues than character selection online. Honestly the input lag in this game makes trying to have a strategy online in half or more of my matches pointless. There's no way to see ping, and in matches with major input delay fast lows are basically guaranteed. (Killer Frost Slide Green Lantern B1 etc) You have to block way in advance of your opponent doing a move.

Mostly people flowchart some dumb thing that's abusable in lag, whether it's spamming Green Lantern lifts and B1 or Superman Zoning/F23 Breath. This stuff is strong offline but it's plain dumb online. And don't get me started on Doomsday, he's designed for input lag.

I think to seriously be good at this game, just like MK9 you need to find people to play with offline.

Now I don't think the top tier invalids the rest of the cast as much as you think, they just do a lot of the same stuff as well or nearly as well and for little effort. People like to win without effort, and pros like things that are reliable. Low execution for the same result is a big plus when you've got to consistent. In general the only time a pro is going to pick up a character that takes higher effort for similar results is if the result is wildly better. (Zero, Morrigan, Urien, Kabal, etc)

Casual players also just care about the W, so they're going to pick whoever has the easiest and most abusable shit. Especially online.

I think online there are several tactics especially with the top tier that are way too good, but blame NRS and blatant input delay and not the game's balance.

Cyborg's block infinite is going to be patched out and currently it's execution prohibitive. Superman F23 Breath has holes offline that you can poke out. You can even hit him with an i8 jab into combo if you're brave. Online ehhh. . . it's a true blockstring.

But unfortunately because you have the experience of playing online this stuff feels even worse than it is.

But yeah, why play a character who has to specialize in rushdown or zoning when you can pick GL or Supes and be nearly as good with half the time invested. Sure I could learn zoning Cyborg and get my IAFBs down, or I could just mash back forward with Green Lantern and be 90% as effective with 10% the effort. Eventually maybe that other 10% of specialization will be worthwhile but for now, easier is just easier.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Execution is not an excuse for broken or absurd characters. Cyborg doing a blockstun infinite or Kabal being a jackass with iafbs because most of the cast can't do shit about it isn't more interesting, deep, or better game design than Superman doing an extremely good string over and over.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I'm seeing a lot of this as well. If I see one more f+2,3 string, I'm going to fucking put my head through my TV. At this point, I'm losing to BAD Supermen players.

Honestly, I don't want this game patched to hell, but a couple small changes would help. Let's start with maybe making the f+2,3, Breath string a little less safe on block? I doubt we will see this, though. Instead they will nerf an already low-mid tier character (Ares). I main Ares and Nightwing now....but man, they don't have much for Superman. Also....I just hate Superman period.

Say what you will about Kabal, but at least for him to be played at the highest level you needed really good execution to do the iAGB and NDCs. Wanna play top tier Superman? Can you do f+2,3? Then you're all set.

I dont think it'd be wise to make his F23 breath less safe (even though its advantage) on block so early. If you did that you'd affect not only his midscreen game but his corner game as well.

I don't exactly know what should be done about it, cause I understand alot of characters cant do much about it, but maybe allowing a backdash escape for a 2nd rep of it would be a better idea, that way you only make the mindgames midscreen evolve, and he keeps the corner dirt.
Say if you could backdash a 2nd rep, he'd have to start using his airdash to keep on you, making the options in his meta game expand, I dunno.

 

[TakeAChance]

What alarms me tho is not the fact that not just online players are gravitating towards the mundane, but it's happening offline as well.

The cast in Injustice is very diverse, and each character is quite strong (minus a select few who I am sure will get help) but at this stage in the game the 3-4 REALLY top characters dictate all matches below them.

If you are going to evo, why would anyone NOT pick Superman/Batman/Cyborg(if infinites remain)/Aquaman?

 

[dookieagain]

Execution is not an excuse for broken or absurd characters. Cyborg doing a blockstun infinite or Kabal being a jackass with iafbs because most of the cast can't do shit about it isn't more interesting, deep, or better game design than Superman doing an extremely good string over and over.

I'm aware, I don't want it in the game. But right now nobody does the block infinite consistently so I'm not particularly afraid of seeing, at least online.

I also wasn't saying higher execution makes up for better tools, just that good players who care about winning will only pick up a higher execution character if the tools available are wildly better.

 

[dookieagain]

What alarms me tho is not the fact that not just online players are gravitating towards the mundane, but it's happening offline as well.

The cast in Injustice is very diverse, and each character is quite strong (minus a select few who I am sure will get help) but at this stage in the game the 3-4 REALLY top characters dictate all matches below them.

If you are going to evo, why would anyone NOT pick Superman/Batman/Cyborg(if infinites remain)/Aquaman?

Same reason Xian picks Gen. People don't know the matchup.

 

[PANDEMlC]

I rarely see Supermans, and I started playing him a week or so ago because I already had a bit of interest in him and I heard nobody in GA was really playing him so I figured I'd take the time to figure him out. Really he's my most enjoyable air dash character, KF is more one dimensional and I didn't enjoy using WW's tools. So I'll stick with him. His combos get a bit redundant but his frame traps, setups off hard knockdowns, whiff punishing and corner mixups and pressure are fun.

 

[TakeAChance]

I rarely see Supermans, and I started playing him a week or so ago because I already had a bit of interest in him and I heard nobody in GA was really playing him so I figured I'd take the time to figure him out. Really he's my most enjoyable air dash character, KF is more one dimensional and I didn't enjoy using WW's tools. So I'll stick with him. His combos get a bit redundant but his frame traps, setups off hard knockdowns, whiff punishing and corner mixups and pressure are fun.

Just to be clear, this is not an attack on Superman players! Quite the contrary! I agree with the whole "Play whoever the hell you want".

For the tournament life of this game I just worry that if something isn't done that it will eventually become yet another 3-4 character tournament fighter.

Hell maybe this is normal. I don't know. I have no problem learning matchups with my character, I rather enjoy the challenge of it. That's most of the fun for me in a fighting game.

I just hope that in 6 months time I am not forced to don a cape out of necessity...unless of course it's Robins

 

[Dulllyanna]

dookieagain That was a response to John Grizzly, not you. Sorry for the confusion, got my post out a bit too late. I disagree on the last part though, I know many strong players that just happen like the challenge of execution. Many don't though (Myself included), and it's fine to implement both designs into FGs as long as it's done properly i.e. non-TTT Tekken EWGF (good) as opposed to SFxT EWGF (stupid).

 

[John Grizzly]

What alarms me tho is not the fact that not just online players are gravitating towards the mundane, but it's happening offline as well.

The cast in Injustice is very diverse, and each character is quite strong (minus a select few who I am sure will get help) but at this stage in the game the 3-4 REALLY top characters dictate all matches below them.

If you are going to evo, why would anyone NOT pick Superman/Batman/Cyborg(if infinites remain)/Aquaman?

For people who might be on the fence with Injustice or just somewhat intrigued, having the game added to EVO is HUGE.

However, if this game is on the main stage and it ends up being like.....6 Supermen in the top 8, it's going to be a joke. Remember how shitty Tekken 6 was a couple years ago with All Bobs and a couple Laws? Don't get me wrong, I'm a MASSIVE Tekken fan, but that shit was terrible. Character diversity makes games look better. And don't even get me started on the possibility of Scorpion and Sub Zero being in this game and then subsequently the possibility that THEY are top tier.

"Hey guys!!!! IT'S TIME FORRRRRRR DEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-CEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!! GET HYPE!!!!!"

*Sub Zero vs Scorpion grand finals*

I just want to see what's best for this game, because I think it has huge potential. And regardless of the frustration of certain things, I'm still having a lot of fun with it. I just don't want it to die. If someone tunes in to a stream of Injustice and just sees nonstop Supermen and f+2,3's, they will likely just dismiss the game. I don't know what the solution is, though. NRS could "nerf" Superman and somehow make him better. *cough* Cyrax *cough*

 

[learis1]

I think you guys are being a slight bit overcritical. This game feels more balanced than most and I wouldn't be surprised if at least half the cast could competitively hold their own against the supposed top 3-5 or whatever. I think we'll see more diversity by evo, at least I hope.

 

[John Grizzly]

Execution is not an excuse for broken or absurd characters. Cyborg doing a blockstun infinite or Kabal being a jackass with iafbs because most of the cast can't do shit about it isn't more interesting, deep, or better game design than Superman doing an extremely good string over and over.

Fair enough, but when you can do something with your feet instead of your fingers, it's a bit ridiculous.

When I would watch REO, I would say to myself "jesus, I hate Kabal, but I certainly can't do the shit he's doing. I respect that." You have to agree that it's much more frustrating to see someone just throwing out braindead f+2,3, breaths over and over until they can hit confirm one.

I'm also not knocking Superman players. He's a massively popular character, as is Batman. I don't mind them being top tier, but I wish the rest of the cast had better tools to hang with him.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Agreed, I don't fault the players for picking whoever, it's their choice. I almost picked up Supes myself, except BA is similar in design but far more fun for me. I just feel his current design is overall shallow and badly done relative to the rest of the cast, which is more important than his strength as a character (Unless he's absolutely broke to shit, but that goes without saying).

 

[TakeAChance]

I think you guys are being a slight bit overcritical. This game feels more balanced than most and I wouldn't be surprised if at least half the cast could competitively hold their own against the supposed top 3-5 or whatever. I think we'll see more diversity by evo, at least I hope.

It is not a matter of characters holding their own. I can "hold my own" against Superman and Batman.

It just pisses me off that they have to work way less hard than I do to remain competitive in the matchup.

 

[Jimmypotato]

You don't have to know how to play any match ups if you play Superman,

 

[Red Reaper]

I have noticed a trend in Injustice's online character development.

I have been playing this game since launch and after drifting around a couple of characters found a character that fit the way I wanted to play. (Nightwing)

This is undoubtedly going to turn into a nerf/buff thread, but that is not the intention. Right now like Pig Of The Hut mentioned, there is unfortunately a clear distinction between the TOP TOP characters and everyone else. We are at risk of having another Kabal/Kenshi/Kung Lao era. We still have the potential for at least 3 solid patches (with the DLC) and I am just hoping that this can be addressed in a timely manner.

Fortunately for you Nightwing is up there and kan kompete with Supes!

 

[TakeAChance]

Fortunately for you Nightwing is up there and kan kompete with Supes!

Nightwing has a harder time with supes than you might think. But it's not the matchup that I am concerned about. I have no problem playing hard matchups.

It just concerns me that if the trend continues, everyone is going to go to those "Special Characters".

 

[TheSpore]

In this game the characters I've been seeing played the most often are those that are plain more popular than others. More people will pick SM and BM because, well its SM and BM. I have always been one to pick and main characters that are different and figure them out because I like both a challenge and I have unique style of play I enjoy. I like fast rush down characters, but enjoy being unpredictable and I like female characters in FGs, so naturally I play with HQ, KF, and CW. They are challenging to master, but they all stand just fine against any of the so-caled top tier characters. In the end you have to decide what is trully important enjoying and having fun playing the game are just winning, I would rather enjoy the game, otherwise playing to win requires plain old work and then it starts to feel like a job and a chore to learn a character you may not even have been intrested in learning in the first place. The main reason I never used Kabal in MK9, never cared for the character, he just never appealed to em at all, but Mileena had a style and flashyness I enjoyed so I just stuck with her. Winning is fully overrated, I lose constantly and I get bodied quite a bit online and offline, but I do not make it an easy taks for anyone.

Last night I went against a guy on KOTH using WW and he was mopping the floor with everyone, no one could touch this guy, I used KF and the only reason he won was, due to his smarter use of his super move and releasing it at the right moment, but well before he even pulled that final stunt I had the guy sweating, I had found his pattern and it was literally neck and neck.

Just pick the one character that you relate to that fits your style and stick with it, be patient abuse that training mode and learn what all these different moves and strings people abuse in the game and learn to punish and avoid them. Most players (esspecially onlien) are one trick ponies, they know a really good combo and how to execute well and they will do anything to get into using it, once you know how to beat that one lil trick they know they freak out and begin to fear trying it again and then resort to cheaper tricks and tactics taht as long as you them they will get destroyed by you.

 

[Dulllyanna]

Even if he's nerfed, many people will still gravitate to him if he remains easy and effective, if not they'll go to the next best thing. There will always be people who want to put in an absolute minimum of effort and thought. It's the same with every FG ever made.