Where did the idea you can't have an opinion for two years come from?

[dookieagain]

I keep seeing in every thread with any balance opinion that every single thing is invalid because the game is too new.

Now I understand that new strategies will arise and the metagame will shift somewhat, but the fact is, this isn't 1999 anymore. The example people always bring up is MvC2 and Iceman and that's a bad example.

One the community was tiny then and focused in arcades. That meant that there were fewer people testing the game and characters, it cost money to learn anything, and you had a lack of communication between players.

Two that was an era before youtube and twitch. If I wanted to see what Mike Watson was doing on the West Coast I had to go to a tiny messageboard and literally trade vhs tapes in the mail. I remember the days when I would go to these shady IRC channels and ftp sites and download things on my high school connection to a zip disk so I could see some sets between high level players.

Three MvC2 was a 3v3 fighter with lots and lots of characters (3xwhat's in IGAU) so not only did you have every character to consider you had every assist.

Four while some people thought Iceman was top tier a lot of stuff was discovered quickly. Within a month I knew about AHVB and that's still the core of Cable. I'm fairly sure people knew a lot of Sentinel dirt going back to COTA. And I know people knew about the DHC damage of Hailstorm within a few months if not weeks.

Sure ROMneto took a while to appear, but I think the whole idea that everything you learn in the first month's of a game's release is meaningless is a massive distortion.

We are more sophisticated now. There's a much larger community, with much better access to the game. I don't think anything found now is set in stone, but that doesn't mean we can't have an informed opinion or that we aren't smart enough to know good and bad tools when we see them.

Sure things will be discovered that affect the tier list, but let's be honest I was at powerup 2011 and people knew that Kung Lao and Kabal were amazing. Sure there were things we were wrong about, but it isn't like we had no idea what worked. Cyrax came later, and I'm sure there will be stuff that is discovered that radically moves someone on the tier list, but pretending anything we think now is somehow completely invalid is insulting the intellect of the community.

 

[Cibernetico]

1. People only thought MvC2 stuff was discovered late because in reality, they just fell in love with the idea of high stakes money matches. Like you said, if you played those games since CoTA, you'd pretty much have a damn good idea of how each iteration played afterwards. The games were never really that much different from each other as the years passed.

2. I don't care if this game is one month old, doesn't change the fact that Bane sucks.

 

[SilverKeyMan]

I think the "2 years" was a sarcastic over-reaction to a certain player stating that everyone is S+ tier until the game ages and we know the matchups a little better.

 

[MagicMan357]

Thats exaggerated. The game basically just came out and the issue is people saying things are this that and a third when they havent even put the time into the game. Just look at the forums with people complaining about such juvenile things.

 

[coolwhip]

You can have an opinion. You just shouldn't take it too seriously when the game is so new. As far as where this idea came from? It came from the first six months of MK when people thought Sonya and Cage were mediocre, and Cyrax was not top 15 after the patch.

 

[GuamoKun]

You can have opinions....but not all opinions are good.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

You can have opinions.

You can't.

 

[GuamoKun]

You can't.

that's true ;_; all I do is regurgitate other's opinions in the hopes that their validity somehow transfers to me ;_;

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don't know where "2 years" came from.. But people should wait at least a few months, just for a sanity check to make sure they've really explored all the possibilities. You should hear some of the stuff that was said about MK9 characters even 6 months into that game's life, which sounds absolutely ridiculous now.

It's a mix. Some things are obvious, a lot of things aren't apparent till later.

 

[STRYKIE]

This sounds like a shot at me so let me clear up that I didn't say anyone's opinion was invalid, but that in itself is the fundamental problem with this thread, to say nobody in Injustice will be on MK9 Kabal's level 2 years from now is ridiculous no matter what way you look at it. The way it was put across was just as impulsively dismissive. Especially amongst a community that supposedly acknowledged how much Kabal had going for him but felt the need to nerf Kung Lao, Cyrax, and even Jade and Kano instead.

The changes he did get wouldn't have been relevant in today's metagame considering how much of a chipfest MK9 had turned into, arguably more so than UMK3/MKT, of course, nobody foresaw it, but again, nobody where's Injustice will end up by then.

Similarly, the community can claim "we want one last patch just to nerf Kabal" all they want, but "hey, while you're there.." would've been coming all day long. Even NRS aren't that inept.

 

[Vagrant]

dookieagain

I don't always agree with you.

But you are one of my favorite posters on this site.

 

[dookieagain]

This sounds like a shot at me so let me clear up that I didn't say anyone's opinion was invalid, but that in itself is the fundamental problem with this thread, to say nobody in Injustice will be on MK9 Kabal's level 2 years from now is ridiculous no matter what way you look at it. The way it was put across was just as impulsively dismissive. Especially amongst a community that supposedly acknowledged how much Kabal had going for him but felt the need to nerf Kung Lao, Cyrax, and even Jade and Kano instead.

The changes he did get wouldn't have been relevant in today's metagame considering how much of a chipfest MK9 had turned into, arguably more so than UMK3/MKT, of course, nobody foresaw it, but again, nobody where's Injustice will end up by then.

Similarly, the community can claim "we want one last patch just to nerf Kabal" all they want, but "hey, while you're there.." would've been coming all day long. Even NRS aren't that inept.

Actually this wasn't aimed at anyone. Just sometimes it feels like the community has a sense that you can't make any judgements even about stuff that is pretty obvious. I'm the first to admit new stuff will come around and it may be even sillier than the silly stuff we have now. But I've seen people defending a fullscreen block infinite because it's too soon to judge.

Vagrant <3 I try to be interesting.

 

[Sutter Pain]

I don't think anyone has actually seen that infinite

 

[dookieagain]

I don't think anyone has actually seen that infinite

He doesn't need it.

 

[Sutter Pain]

He doesn't need it.

I'm just remarking on the mysterious infinite he posses. I have a better chance of finding big foot then a video iafb infinite I've been searching for both . I really just want to see it done is all.

 

[AK JayFingas]

I can see where OP is coming from. From online casuals to tournament players, everyone has a say on what they like and dont like.

 

[Goldi]

Because we aren't playing the same game now that we will be in 2 years. We don't even have all the characters yet. Patches and DLC will come and change everything.

It hasn't settled yet. In 1990, you stuck a game in your console and everything there was all that ever would be. No DLC, no patches, no hot fixes, not even easy access to other players to talk with unless you already had them in your living room. Those were the days though if you ask me lol.

 

[Matix218]

I'm planning on reading/replying to the OP in 2 years, its too soon to reply to this thread. :3

 

[cR WoundCowboy]

snip

The simple answer is that people are overreacting because of how MK9 was evaluated. I think people are afraid of something being called OP and getting changed by NRS (the Kano argument). But if you think about it, most characters that were considered good at the beginning of MK9 are still considered to be good now. Lao and Kabal are still both very good. There was very little talk about Sonya and Cyrax (outside of his command grab) but that does not mean that people thought they were shit so much as it means that the characters were unexplored.

As for Injustice, I can guarantee you that Aquaman's trait will be just as cheap in two years as it is now unless it gets modified. People are allowed to complain if they can make a reasonable argument. Yes we all still have a long way to go in terms of our gameplay, but that does not mean that we can't critique the game.

 

[Gideon_Grey]

The moral of this thread is - enjoy watching Pig of the Hut play, but don't read a goddamn word he writes. Crazier than a shithouse rat.

 

[DuskAlloy]

Because my opinion is better...

 

[Red Reaper]

I keep seeing in every thread with any balance opinion that every single thing is invalid because the game is too new.

Cyrax came later, and I'm sure there will be stuff that is discovered that radically moves someone on the tier list, but pretending anything we think now is somehow completely invalid is insulting the intellect of the community.

Exactly.. We kan treat this like Science. Accept that we don't know "everything" but realize that certain things are klearly related. Once something new is discovered, we form a new opinion. Something's are glaringly obvious, like F23 Breath. Even if he doesn't follow up after it, the footsie tool alone is enough to be kalled a major threat. We kan't just ignore the obvious and pretend it doesn't exist.

I think people are just afraid of being wrong and kalled out for it. If you say something stupid like "Superman isn't good." then you deserve the backlash, but if you said something that you had reason to believe then people will forgive you when you've changed your mind.

 

[Raidenwins]

I keep seeing in every thread with any balance opinion that every single thing is invalid because the game is too new.

Now I understand that new strategies will arise and the metagame will shift somewhat, but the fact is, this isn't 1999 anymore. The example people always bring up is MvC2 and Iceman and that's a bad example.

One the community was tiny then and focused in arcades. That meant that there were fewer people testing the game and characters, it cost money to learn anything, and you had a lack of communication between players.

Two that was an era before youtube and twitch. If I wanted to see what Mike Watson was doing on the West Coast I had to go to a tiny messageboard and literally trade vhs tapes in the mail. I remember the days when I would go to these shady IRC channels and ftp sites and download things on my high school connection to a zip disk so I could see some sets between high level players.

Three MvC2 was a 3v3 fighter with lots and lots of characters (3xwhat's in IGAU) so not only did you have every character to consider you had every assist.

Four while some people thought Iceman was top tier a lot of stuff was discovered quickly. Within a month I knew about AHVB and that's still the core of Cable. I'm fairly sure people knew a lot of Sentinel dirt going back to COTA. And I know people knew about the DHC damage of Hailstorm within a few months if not weeks.

Sure ROMneto took a while to appear, but I think the whole idea that everything you learn in the first month's of a game's release is meaningless is a massive distortion.

We are more sophisticated now. There's a much larger community, with much better access to the game. I don't think anything found now is set in stone, but that doesn't mean we can't have an informed opinion or that we aren't smart enough to know good and bad tools when we see them.

Sure things will be discovered that affect the tier list, but let's be honest I was at powerup 2011 and people knew that Kung Lao and Kabal were amazing. Sure there were things we were wrong about, but it isn't like we had no idea what worked. Cyrax came later, and I'm sure there will be stuff that is discovered that radically moves someone on the tier list, but pretending anything we think now is somehow completely invalid is insulting the intellect of the community.

I didn't read every answer to this thread, so forgive me if I sound redundant, but dude, first of all nobody said wait 2 years. That's crazy. The suggestion was wait a few months. Second of all, MvC2?! Seriously? The reason why people are suggesting, with very good reason, to wait and explore the game fully before jumping on the nerf bandwagon is MK9, not MvC2. It's that simple. By the time it was all said and done, i.e. the last patch hit, that game was rife with unnecessary nerfs and buffs, such as Raiden being crippled, because of people whining and complaining without first attempting to actually learn the game.

 

[Dizzy]

Because those people love comparing IGAU to MK9, the latter had no frame data (or partial frame data) and no reasonable training mode for most of the time. Months after the game came out people were posting that they thought Smoke Bomb was advantage on block. We didn't have any hit/block adv for any chars for 6+ months. It wasn't completed until over a year into the game.

With those two in the game, it allows the knowledge of the players to evolve rapidly and it would be illogical to not see that the strats/tech would evolve more quickly with it. It will be alot harder for people to abuse gimmicks when you can record the setup and test ways to get out of it.

 

[GamerBlake90]

You can have an opinion. You just shouldn't take it too seriously when the game is so new. As far as where this idea came from? It came from the first six months of MK when people thought Sonya and Cage were mediocre, and Cyrax was not top 15 after the patch.

^^^ HOLY. FUCKING. THIS.

I am never going to stop laughing about the era of "Sonya is shit-tier" whenever it crosses my mind, nor will I ever comprehend why it wasn't until like mid- or late 2012 that people finally began putting Cyrax in their top five, which is where he was at from the very beginning. I mean, really?

The moral of the story is, stop jumping to conclusions. If you do make an argument that something in a fighting game seems out of place, it's always best to have the cold, hard facts based on your experiences ready to back your words up. I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to take the word of anyone who hasn't put more than a month or so worth of time into a game. It's going to take way more time than that for the concrete facts to be established. Hell, having gotten the game late, I certainly am in no position to make any calls on anything.

Also, I don't know why MvC2 was even mentioned? Injustice is not MvC2. I don't want input based on how much time you've put into fighters in general, what I want is input about a specific fighting game that both of us happen to be playing...which is Injustice in this case. I posted in another thread that you simply cannot play a fighting game like you would in a different one. You can argue that you can apply general fundamentals like spacing, mix-ups, etc. to all fighters, which of course you can, but I feel that's only like 25% of what it takes. The greater portion of the assignment lies in knowing the current game for its characters, mix-ups, frame data, and so on.

This isn't to say you can't have an opinion...but months or maybe years from now, you may yet be surprised to the point where it warrants a change in perception. You already acknowledge this, so I won't say more.

Note: I'm half-asleep right now as I type this, so if I completely missed the point, feel free to put me on blast. When I'm more awake, I'll correct myself.